possible new leg spin variation?

[daghetto]

dont know if anyone cares, but the leg spinners here might be interested. im originally a fast bowler but have been messin about with some leg spin. so i was doing the googly and seeing how i could make it less obvious that the back of my hand is facing the batsmen. but then i thought of something. when you bowl a googly or even leg spin, obviously the third finger flicks out the ball right? well how about if your wrist was in the googly position with the back of the hand facing the batsmen, but instead of flicking it out with the third finger, you flick it out like a off spin by having the ball between your first fingers knucle and third fingers, then flicking the third finger inwards into your palm so it spins like a leg spin. best thing is that you cant tell which way the fingers are spinning the ball because the batsmen can only see the back of the hand.what do you guys think of this?is it something that can be effective for when the batsmen is picking up your googlies?

i thought id share it with other leg spinners.its definately interesting and not that hard at all compared to flipper/gipper/off spinning flipper/whatever is out there on youtube that people claim is a variation but is the hardest thing ever and not practical

[stephen]

It seems to me that from what you have described that variation would actually be quite difficult. It would only really be useful if your googly actually took you a lot of wickets. Warne, for instance, would find it quite useless as a variation.

Varying your stock ball will probably take you more wickets anyway than varying a variation

To be honest, given the difficulty of legspin as a discipline, unless you are nearing first grade level the only ball you should be working on really is your stock ball and topspinner (which is the easiest variation).

[Julian87]

I'd need a shoulder reco after trying it 5 times tbh.

[JimmyGS]

It's been around for a long time. I think Clarrie Grimmet used it. It's extremely difficult to consistently land in game situations.

[slowfinger]

Originally Posted by daghetto

dont know if anyone cares, but the leg spinners here might be interested. im originally a fast bowler but have been messin about with some leg spin. so i was doing the googly and seeing how i could make it less obvious that the back of my hand is facing the batsmen. but then i thought of something. when you bowl a googly or even leg spin, obviously the third finger flicks out the ball right? well how about if your wrist was in the googly position with the back of the hand facing the batsmen, but instead of flicking it out with the third finger, you flick it out like a off spin by having the ball between your first fingers knucle and third fingers, then flicking the third finger inwards into your palm so it spins like a leg spin. best thing is that you cant tell which way the fingers are spinning the ball because the batsmen can only see the back of the hand.what do you guys think of this?is it something that can be effective for when the batsmen is picking up your googlies?

i thought id share it with other leg spinners.its definately interesting and not that hard at all compared to flipper/gipper/off spinning flipper/whatever is out there on youtube that people claim is a variation but is the hardest thing ever and not practical

Yeah but the only problem with that is that your hadn then also looks like it is doing offie aswell so the batsmen will pick it up. Good idea though, try it.

[Jim2109]

id say its probably of no real use, since the majority of batsmen cant read deliveries out of the hand anyway unless your googly is super obvious. in which case spend your time improving it and disguising it. at the same time though, dont overpractice it or youll lose your leg break!

the off spinning flipper videos youve seen on youtube are probably mine. its a completely different delivery, and i only use it because i cant bowl a googly (it is basically just off spin, but disguised closer to the leg spin grip and arm action, and with more revs on the ball). also the googly can be fairly obvious to spot, and causes huge issues for leg spinners if over-practiced, called googly syndrome, where you lose the ability to bowl leg breaks! i quite like my leg break as it is, so that combined with my shoulder not really being willing to go where it needs to, i started playing with the off spinning flipper instead. its not that hard to bowl once you figure out the wrist, and its a lot better disguised than a googly. most batsmen would be hard pressed to spot the difference until it turns back in at them! mix it in among big turning leg breaks and it can work excellently.

the gipper, or the "wrong wrong'un", is more like the delivery you are describing. it is bowled with a "flipper" action, but the flipper action isnt hugely dissimilar to a finger spin action. if you havent yet bowled it and landed it consistently over 22 yards then i have a feeling youre going to find it difficult to achieve. its hard to impart spin in that direction with your wrist at the angle it needs to be.

have a look at Ajantha Mendis' "Carrom ball". he uses the Iverson-Gleeson grip, which is a little different to what you describe, but you have the back of your hand facing the batsman and use your middle finger to impart leg spin on the ball. he finds great success with it for Sri Lanka.

[someblokedave]

Originally Posted by daghetto

dont know if anyone cares, but the leg spinners here might be interested. im originally a fast bowler but have been messin about with some leg spin. so i was doing the googly and seeing how i could make it less obvious that the back of my hand is facing the batsmen. but then i thought of something. when you bowl a googly or even leg spin, obviously the third finger flicks out the ball right? well how about if your wrist was in the googly position with the back of the hand facing the batsmen, but instead of flicking it out with the third finger, you flick it out like a off spin by having the ball between your first fingers knucle and third fingers, then flicking the third finger inwards into your palm so it spins like a leg spin. best thing is that you cant tell which way the fingers are spinning the ball because the batsmen can only see the back of the hand.what do you guys think of this?is it something that can be effective for when the batsmen is picking up your googlies?

i thought id share it with other leg spinners.its definately interesting and not that hard at all compared to flipper/gipper/off spinning flipper/whatever is out there on youtube that people claim is a variation but is the hardest thing ever and not practical

Yeah that'll be me or Jim above with all the variations of the Flipper. They are all real variations, you've only got to read Grimmetts Taking Wickets from 1932 and he explains them explicitly. As for how useful they are - that's another matter. Having worked with them now for over 3 years the one that shows the least promise and is as you've said virtually impossible to bowl is the 'Wrong wrong un' AKA 'The Gipper' as I christened it. The others are all legit deliveries, with the 'Out of the front of the hand' Off-spinning Flipper being a favourite of mine.

Your explanation is difficult to visualise and it's be useful if you were upload a video of the grip and release to youtube?

[Migara]

Get your damn leg break correct. That matches nothing. Then if you have a straight on slider, that is more than enough to get even the best groping for it.

[ringo1968]

Originally Posted by someblokedave

Yeah that'll be me or Jim above with all the variations of the Flipper. They are all real variations, you've only got to read Grimmetts Taking Wickets from 1932 and he explains them explicitly. As for how useful they are - that's another matter. Having worked with them now for over 3 years the one that shows the least promise and is as you've said virtually impossible to bowl is the 'Wrong wrong un' AKA 'The Gipper' as I christened it. The others are all legit deliveries, with the 'Out of the front of the hand' Off-spinning Flipper being a favourite of mine.

Your explanation is difficult to visualise and it's be useful if you were upload a video of the grip and release to youtube?

Dave- do you need to drop your shoulder considerably and turn chest on do deliver a googly? Because i cannot see how you can bowl a googly from a classic side-on position.

[someblokedave]

I think it helps to start out with (Shoulder dip), as it helps you to get both the arm and wrist round a bit more. I'm pretty useless at observing the intracasies of bowling, but yeah there maybe something in being more chest on as well? Getting side on gives your Leg Break more turn so it kind of makes sense that if you're less side on you may be more successful with your Googly?

What I would say though having gone through the 'Googly Syndrome', is to be very careful not to over-do your training with it, because it'll really screw up your Leg Break and as that bloke above has said, your Leg Breaks the ball that's going to serve you best every time.

With regards to seeing how the release works and the grip etc, this Aussie bloke here who has only 2 videos gets it spot on - have a look, let me know what you think. YouTube - ‪Leg-spin bowling wrist action - from behind‬‏
he doesn't dwell on it, but just look how he gets it to come out of the back of the hand.

[someblokedave]

I replied see above

[someblokedave]

Originally Posted by daghetto

dont know if anyone cares, but the leg spinners here might be interested. im originally a fast bowler but have been messin about with some leg spin. so i was doing the googly and seeing how i could make it less obvious that the back of my hand is facing the batsmen. but then i thought of something. when you bowl a googly or even leg spin, obviously the third finger flicks out the ball right? well how about if your wrist was in the googly position with the back of the hand facing the batsmen, but instead of flicking it out with the third finger, you flick it out like a off spin by having the ball between your first fingers knucle and third fingers, then flicking the third finger inwards into your palm so it spins like a leg spin. best thing is that you cant tell which way the fingers are spinning the ball because the batsmen can only see the back of the hand.what do you guys think of this?is it something that can be effective for when the batsmen is picking up your googlies?

i thought id share it with other leg spinners.its definately interesting and not that hard at all compared to flipper/gipper/off spinning flipper/whatever is out there on youtube that people claim is a variation but is the hardest thing ever and not practical

You say that at the end there with regards all the Grimmett variations, but they are variations and only get used every now and then. Yeah, they are difficult, but they're not impossible. In my vids I talk about Grimmetts Wrong Wrong Un, but I've returned to that again this year and had another look at it approaching it from a different angle. My original approach was that the emphasis was the Flipper aspect and that the Googly part was the difficult part to add on. Early this year practicing Googlies I simply gripped the ball with the Flipper grip and released the ball with the emphasis being the Googly acation rather than the Flipper action and it was a whole lot easier. Given only a little more practice, this is currently by variation ball and it looks like it has got potential.

If you don't bowl Flippers it's not going to be possible to spend 1/2 an hour trying it cold and getting it sussed. They're a difficult ball to work with and potentially physically harmful causing medial epicondilitis or worse if you're younger. But practicing with a tennis ball for weeks flicking the ball from hand to hand will develop the thumb and finger strength and dexterity. Then bowling over a short distance working towards your 22 yards will enable you to bowl what-ever variaton you start out with. I've just been reading Amol Rajans book the Twirlymen and his research places the origins of Grimmetts Flipper with a Bloke from my own county Essex and an under-arm bowler called Simpson Hayward. It was Simpson Hayward with his under-arm bowling that showed Grimmett the 'Flick' technique and Grimmett experimented with the deliveries using the 'Round the Loop' principle identifying 4 deliveries akin to conventional wrist spinning deliveries. Rajan illustrates a further 5th or 6th technique for the Flipper that produces off-spin.

I don't think you should write off Flippers in the way that you seem to have done, but at the same time they're not the answer to anyones bowling problems. If you're a Wrist Spinner over and above everything else the thing you have to be able to do is bowl a very good Leg Break that turns in varying degrees at your will and land it in a place of your choice. The biggest problem that we all face in this day and age is the lack of time and the fact that our time is taken up doing other stuff. Whereas Grimmett had his own wicket in his back yard very few of us have similar resources. I'm exceptionally lucky in that I have access to something similar across the road from my house enabling me to get out there and put in the hours.

I'm certain that if my grip was an Offies grip I'd be taking you up on your idea and exploring it and trying it out.

[someblokedave]

Originally Posted by Migara

Get your damn leg break correct. That matches nothing. Then if you have a straight on slider, that is more than enough to get even the best groping for it.

How do you bowl this 'Slider' or do you mean the 'Orthodox Back-Spinner'?

[ringo1968]

Originally Posted by someblokedave

I think it helps to start out with (Shoulder dip), as it helps you to get both the arm and wrist round a bit more. I'm pretty useless at observing the intracasies of bowling, but yeah there maybe something in being more chest on as well? Getting side on gives your Leg Break more turn so it kind of makes sense that if you're less side on you may be more successful with your Googly?

What I would say though having gone through the 'Googly Syndrome', is to be very careful not to over-do your training with it, because it'll really screw up your Leg Break and as that bloke above has said, your Leg Breaks the ball that's going to serve you best every time.

With regards to seeing how the release works and the grip etc, this Aussie bloke here who has only 2 videos gets it spot on - have a look, let me know what you think. YouTube - ‪Leg-spin bowling wrist action - from behind‬‏
he doesn't dwell on it, but just look how he gets it to come out of the back of the hand.

The Wrong'un or Bosie looks a tough ask. Your whole wrist has to be inverted at delivery i take it?? And given a big flick between middle and ring finger as well??

[shahimad]

i am sufffering from googly syndrome and when i try to bowl a legbreak by shane warne grip it just turn out to be a big turning googly but when i bowl by richie benauds grip comes out a big ripping leggie so if i use that quite unguessable ripping googly as a variation will i also lose my new learned leggie or not