1-800-CallGoughy The Technical Helpline for International Bowlers

[Goughy]

Originally Posted by Autobahn

I don't know it still just smacks of arm-chair coaching to me.

Yes of course it is as Im not dealing directly with the guys I am talking about. However, the stuff I am talking about is also what I do for a living so it is hardly like I am a bum sat in a bar spouting random nonsense.

What it also is a sharing of detailed knowledge. You would think people might appreciate this added detail to think about regarding certain players but I guess not.

Originally Posted by Autobahn

but i'm saying that qualifications do have an important role in ....proving that are a good coach.

HA, they do nothing of the sort. You obviously know nothing about the coaching qualification system. A qualification may show you the recomeneded way to teach a forward defensive shot to a 7 year old but it is a terrible indicator of how good a coach someone is.

If we are going to continue this disagreement could you start a new thread. I want to continue to use this one to break down the problems certain players have.

[Goughy]

Originally Posted by Craig

Why does Chris Martin struggle on real flat wickets - like the type you find at Adelaide Oval where a one-eyed man with a stick of rubarb could get runs square of the wicket there?

I was thinking it is his action and from where he is from?

CHRIS MARTIN

I was unable to find any video of Chris Martin to analyse but going from memory I would place the problem more on the style of bowler he is rather than some kink in his action.

In bowling style (not technique or action) Martin is a lesser version of Ntini (he does similar things just a little less so in each area).

He hustles in and hits the deck very hard and generates decent pace. On good days with rhythm he is impressive and lively.

However, his problem with flat tracks is that he is not an especially skilled bowler. Like Ntini he has a plan A and nothing else.

If plan A does not work he has nothing to fall back on and will constantly struggle.

Compare him to a bowler at the opposite end of the spectrum. Depending on the track and how he feels Shane Warne bowls differently. He varies his speed, the amount of overspin on the ball compared to side spin, the different variations to use and the frequency of using them. Now Warne is as different to Martin as it gets but seamers also have to possess varitaion and change the way they bowl on different tracks. Be it more cutters, a different length etc.

Martin does not have the fine-tuned skills to deal with flat tracks when his normal (and only) form of attack is not succeeding.

[Autobahn]

Originally Posted by Goughy

Yes of course it is as Im not dealing directly with the guys I am talking about. However, the stuff I am talking about is also what I do for a living so it is hardly like I am a bum sat in a bar spouting random nonsense.

What it also is a sharing of detailed knowledge. You would think people might appreciate this added detail to think about regarding certain players but I guess not.


HA, they do nothing of the sort. You obviously know nothing about the coaching qualification system. A qualification may show you the recomeneded way to teach a forward defensive shot to a 7 year old but it is a terrible indicator of how good a coach someone is.

If we are going to continue this disagreement could you start a new thread. I want to continue to use this one to break down the problems certain players have.

So how do we know if any of this stuff your saying is correct?

[Goughy]

Originally Posted by Autobahn

So how do we know if any of this stuff your saying is correct?

We have already been over this. The fact that it is correct, Im an experienced coach, I employ a lot of coaches and understand how it all works and the fact Ive layed it all on the line for analysis should be enough. Do you have to believe me? No, and thats your issue not mine.

I do find it difficult to understand your closedmindedness that suggests if Id bothered to get a piece of paper designed to show non-cricketers the simple basics of cricket that my comments would carry far more weight.

Oh well, it also bothers me that if this was part of a coaching job for me I would charge a lot of money for this analysis and corrective work and that Im putting it all here for free and being criticised by someone who does not understand how coaching works.

As I said before, can we keep this thread for what I intended it for rather than going round in circles? If you don't like it then thats fine but believe me you will lose out on a lot of detailed information.

[Goughy]

Originally Posted by Dasa

Goughy, what do you think of the new crop of Indian seamers, particularly Munaf Patel, Sreesanth and Pathan (if you've seen enough of them, that is)?

Ive watched them a few times now but this is the 1st time Ive spent the time to study them.

Here is what I see

The New Indian Seamers
Firstly, I want to point out that from all the hype I read and the few times Ive watched (not just on the evidence of this game) Ive been a little disappointed in the pace they bowl at. It does not mean they are not good bowlers but they certainly don't have the 'scary' pace some have suggested.

Anyway

Shanthakumaran Sreesanth
I love his run-up and approach to the crease. He comes in with real purpose and enters his action with a lot of controlled speed and aggression.

His action is fine, the only thing I would mention that could be improved is that it is a 'clipped' and shortened action. By this I mean that his left arm never really gets high enough, often it is not much more than head height. If he extended the left arm higher he would get further back in delivery and add extra height to his action and improved weight transfer (there is no great amount of rocking from his weight being back to forward in delivery).

He hits the crease in a straight line and continues through it and that is always a great thing. His action has no easily noticable problems that weaken him as a bowler. There is however, room to add extra pace by extending his action as I have already mentioned.

Munaf Patel
Now I cannot be the only one who thinks he looks like a brown McGrath when bowling? Somebody else surely has mentioned it somewhere else. Im shocked how similar they are.

Munaf has a steady rhythmical run-up and action that he manages to extract a surprising amount of pace from and he gets very close to the stumps.

As with Sreesanth he has obviously has access to good coaching that has him heading in straight lines throughout the whole process of bowling. I actually like his action, but again you cant help but think that he could get a little higher at the point of delivery.

Potential changes that could be made are quite minor and similar to Sreesanth. Patels left arm never reaches the heights it perhaps should and he bowls using a massive amount of effort from the right shoulder. It is very interesting watching him bowl in slo-mo.

Pace from the shoulder rather than from momentum and the hips generally indicates a tendance to struggle with consistency. This is in contrast to the rest of his action that suggests continuity. This means he will not have as many issues with the problem as others, but it is still there.

Also bowlers who put a massive amount of shoulder into the ball face wear and tear issues. I would be very surprised if Patel does not require shoulder surgery in the future.

Further extention of the left arm would reduce the wear and tear on his shoulder and add extra height and bouce to his repetoire.

Notes
- What I find fascinating is that both of the guys do not have a huge amount of weight transfer in their delivery and that they both run-in heavily bent forward. I call this the sprinters run-up. Often it causes this lack of rocking back and forward and a small loss of height and pace in delivery. It is not always the case, ie Allan Donald who did this but also generated a huge amount of coil, but it is common. Im not saying it would make a huge difference as each bowler is different but I would like to see both Sreesanth and Patel try running in less crouched and with a straigher back in the nets for a few overs to see if it would help.

- I would also like both of them to put a couple of kgs of muscle on. Nothing to do with gaining pace but to help support the joints and reduce injuries. They do not have to bulk up to be muscle men but it is an important part of injury prevention and reducing the effects of wear and tear.

[Autobahn]

Originally Posted by Goughy

We have already been over this. The fact that it is correct, Im an experienced coach, I employ a lot of coaches and understand how it all works and the fact Ive layed it all on the line for analysis should be enough. Do you have to believe me? No, and thats your issue not mine.

I do find it difficult to understand your closedmindedness that suggests if Id bothered to get a piece of paper designed to show non-cricketers the simple basics of cricket that my comments would carry far more weight.

Oh well, it also bothers me that if this was part of a coaching job for me I would charge a lot of money for this analysis and corrective work and that Im putting it all here for free and being criticised by someone who does not understand how coaching works.

As I said before, can we keep this thread for what I intended it for rather than going round in circles? If you don't like it then thats fine but believe me you will lose out on a lot of detailed information.

Closemindedness? that would be true if i was just accepted your analysis point-blank and your belief that you hold all the right answers.

[Goughy]

List of Players Analysed upto 2nd July

Kabir Ali
http://forum.cricketweb.net/showpost...09&postcount=1
Ian Bell
http://forum.cricketweb.net/showpost...09&postcount=1
Dalrymple
http://forum.cricketweb.net/showpost...09&postcount=1
Plunkett
http://forum.cricketweb.net/showpost...09&postcount=1
Bresnan
http://forum.cricketweb.net/showpost...09&postcount=1
Panesar
http://forum.cricketweb.net/showpost...09&postcount=1
Shane Bond
http://forum.cricketweb.net/showpost...9&postcount=25
Abdul Razzaq
http://forum.cricketweb.net/showpost...8&postcount=39
Simon Jones
http://forum.cricketweb.net/showpost...5&postcount=32
Chris Martin
http://forum.cricketweb.net/showpost...7&postcount=47
Sreesanth
http://forum.cricketweb.net/showpost...1&postcount=50
Munaf Patel
http://forum.cricketweb.net/showpost...1&postcount=50

NOTE ON FAST BOWLING INJURIES
http://forum.cricketweb.net/showpost...2&postcount=34

[Sir Redman]

Originally Posted by Goughy

CHRIS MARTIN

I was unable to find any video of Chris Martin to analyse but going from memory I would place the problem more on the style of bowler he is rather than some kink in his action.

In bowling style (not technique or action) Martin is a lesser version of Ntini (he does similar things just a little less so in each area).

He hustles in and hits the deck very hard and generates decent pace. On good days with rhythm he is impressive and lively.

However, his problem with flat tracks is that he is not an especially skilled bowler. Like Ntini he has a plan A and nothing else.

If plan A does not work he has nothing to fall back on and will constantly struggle.

Compare him to a bowler at the opposite end of the spectrum. Depending on the track and how he feels Shane Warne bowls differently. He varies his speed, the amount of overspin on the ball compared to side spin, the different variations to use and the frequency of using them. Now Warne is as different to Martin as it gets but seamers also have to possess varitaion and change the way they bowl on different tracks. Be it more cutters, a different length etc.

Martin does not have the fine-tuned skills to deal with flat tracks when his normal (and only) form of attack is not succeeding.

Martin for mine is a bowler who totally depends on overhead conditions to get wickets. When the ball is swinging around he can be a very dangerous bowler (whether the pitch is flat or not), especially to left-handers with his ability to swing the ball a long way away from them. However, he does not have the ability to swing the ball the other way which costs him a lot of wickets. Occasionally he can get the ball to cut back in off the pitch, but that seens to be pot luck more than anything else, and as you said it's this one-dimensioned attack that prevents him from succeeding in conditions that don't favour his bowling.

[SJS]

Originally Posted by Autobahn

I don't know it still just smacks of arm-chair coaching to me.

And i'm not saying as some people are suggesting, that being a good coach relies totally on qualifications but i'm saying that qualifications do have an important role in things such as injury prevention and most importantly proving that are a good coach.

Oh yes. That part of it is absolutely true. That as well as the need to understand all the modern aids to coaching, What was being discussed was purely seeing and thinking out the cause and remedy of a persistent problem with a players technique

Originally Posted by Autobahn

i mean for example SJS if you tried to tell harby especially how to flight the ball better, there is a good chance he might tell you to get lost because you don't have that evidence of knowledge.

You are absolutely right. He probably will. If I did not think so, I would have gone to him myself by now Particularly Harbhajan since its well known that he doesnt think much of what even legendry off spinners like Prasanna can teach him.

Although a cricketing friend in Delhi wants to try and arrange a meeting between me and Harbhajan but you are right, it is difficult. Thats why many defects do not get corrected. The training that one gets at courses for coaches do not teach you the nuances. Thats a tragedy but its true.

Originally Posted by Autobahn

Would you like it if someone walked up to, who didn't have any provable experience or knowledge of your job and suddenly told you how to do it better?

There was a time when you would. When coaches were not big international names but faceless yet brilliant guys whom only local cricketers knew.

Let me tell you of one from India who even Indians havent heard of except those who came in contact.

This was a guy called TP Bharathan. Founded and ran a cricket club in Delhi called Madras Cricket Club which grew to be known as the place from where technically perfect cricketers emerged. TP Bharathan is long dead and the club is run like a regular club now and has its current champion in the form of an Indian opener called Sehwag.

In the late sixties to the late eighties when any North Zone cricketer, particulary the Delhi based players, got into a problem, off they went to the Madras club nets to have 'Ustadji' (teacher) as Bharathan was affectionately called by everyone. He would make them bat or bowl in the nets with the boys and at the end of the day he would call them to the abandoned nets and ask them to bowl or bat to his thrown-from-half-pitch deliveries as he talked them through their problems. It was fascinating to watch. NO ONE, I repeat NO ONE went back without being satisfied. It was incredible and yet he was unknown outside the intimate cricketing circle.

He died unsung while the Govt. of India gives awards every year to 'qualified' coaches for their contribution to the game who arent fit to carry his dirty cricketing socks

PS: I would have loved to see what he would have done to Sehwag if he was alive !

[vic_orthdox]

Originally Posted by Autobahn

Would you like it if someone walked up to, who didn't have any provable experience or knowledge of your job and suddenly told you how to do it better?

It's your duty to yourself to at least try it.

[Smudge]

Originally Posted by Sir Redman

Martin for mine is a bowler who totally depends on overhead conditions to get wickets. When the ball is swinging around he can be a very dangerous bowler (whether the pitch is flat or not), especially to left-handers with his ability to swing the ball a long way away from them. However, he does not have the ability to swing the ball the other way which costs him a lot of wickets. Occasionally he can get the ball to cut back in off the pitch, but that seens to be pot luck more than anything else, and as you said it's this one-dimensioned attack that prevents him from succeeding in conditions that don't favour his bowling.

I guess Martin also is constricted over what he can do by his action. By and large, open chested bowlers like Martin struggle to get the ball moving away in the air in their action - with the likes of Simon Jones (perhaps?) an exception to the rule. I wouldn’t have a clue why he’d drag the ball as short he often does - perhaps it’s in attempting to compensate for loss of movement?

[SJS]

Originally Posted by Voltman

I guess Martin also is constricted over what he can do by his action. By and large, open chested bowlers like Martin struggle to get the ball moving away in the air in their action - with the likes of Simon Jones (perhaps?) an exception to the rule. I wouldn’t have a clue why he’d drag the ball as short he often does - perhaps it’s in attempting to compensate for loss of movement?

I have not really seen him but one reason could be the point of delivery. Almost all bowlers would do well to release the ball when their bowling hand is at its peak and the arm is fully extended vertically. Releasing earlier results in over pitching and later in pitching short. Its very critical for spinners with the flight but is also imprtant for the other bowlers.

The difference in point of release may be very slight but it makes a difference.

[Craig]

Goughy I'm sure you have seen Sean Tait bowl (in the Ashes) and I noticed his lack of follow-through, and his unusual action, could he actually develop a proper follow-through, or he can't because of his action?

And does a good follow through really important?

All we need is Corey who knows a thing or two about fast bowling (he was one himself).

[Goughy]

Steve Harmison

Having read about Harmisons performances in the ODIs this year (I didnt really watch as well..they are ODIs) I decided to closely watch Harmison in the 1st Test against Pakistan.

Immediately I was worried but I did not want to comment on it until I compared it with older footage. I've now done this and there has been a definate change in his action.

During his 7-12 against the West Indies his left arm got high and came down straight through towards the stumps.

In the Pakistan test, when bowling against righthanders, his left arm came down in the direction of 1st/2nd slip. This seriously affects accuracy and rhythm. Every time he bowls (as with others I have mentioned in this thread with a similar problem) his arm will naturally be directed towards 1st/2nd slip.

He subconsciously knows that is not where he is aiming and his arm adjusts to target the desired area. What this means is that his right arm is fighting against its natural arc and this leads to variable results.

Harmison can still be great, but he needs to put it in the right place more often. If he looked at his left arm a few years ago and compared it to how it is now he could make big strides in a few weeks.

I hope he can do it rather than the posibility that he had a problem that forces the left arm to have moved to where is currently is.

[Langeveldt]

I've got an action like Ray Price, but I'm right handed.. is that a good thing?

My fast bowling action was hideous after my long lay off, and is part of the reason I'm bowling off spin at the moment..