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Thread: England disintegrating like in 2013-14 Ashes - Johnson

  1. #31
    International Captain adub's Avatar
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    If I was going for a composite attack I'd go for McGrath, Lillee and Harris. Rhino was just that ****ing good. (although tbf I'd actually go for Davo but damn it's a close run thing)

  2. #32
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    Brett Lee tbh
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  3. #33
    Cricket Web Staff Member quincywagstaff's Avatar
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    While obviously an excellent attack, I think the Australian bowlers are getting overrated and overhyped a bit, especially Starc. With the way some talk about him as a Test bowler youd think hed have the equivalent record of what he has in ODIs but in fact his current Test average is 27.5.

    As hes shown in this series, hes usually very patchy as a Test bowler and can mix an excellent spell and a very wasteful spell within the same day. Only the Sri Lankan tour have we ever seen him be an A-grade strike bowler throughout a Test series.

    As I said on the podcast, Lyons been the key factor in the success of the bowling attack. Hes been a strike and stock bowler (like Warne was so often) so that some ordinary new ball spells and patchy performances by Hazlewood and Starc havent really mattered. Its a remarkable turnaround from 12 months ago.
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  4. #34
    International Captain TheJediBrah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by quincywagstaff View Post
    While obviously an excellent attack, I think the Australian bowlers are getting overrated and overhyped a bit, especially Starc. With the way some talk about him as a Test bowler you’d think he’d have the equivalent record of what he has in ODIs but in fact his current Test average is 27.5.

    As he’s shown in this series, he’s usually very patchy as a Test bowler and can mix an excellent spell and a very wasteful spell within the same day. Only the Sri Lankan tour have we ever seen him be an A-grade strike bowler throughout a Test series.

    As I said on the podcast, Lyon’s been the key factor in the success of the bowling attack. He’s been a strike and stock bowler (like Warne was so often) so that some ordinary new ball spells and patchy performances by Hazlewood and Starc haven’t really mattered. It’s a remarkable turnaround from 12 months ago.
    27.5 flatters him too. He is very lucky to be a sub-30 averaging bowler IMO.

    I mean the guy has a lower career bowling average than Jimmy Anderson, and this is despite playing on Australian roads when Jimmy plays in England.

    But there is no way Starc is as good a Test bowler as Jimmy Anderson. I think he gets gifted a lot of wickets and bowls tailenders out a lot which helps.
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  5. #35
    International Captain adub's Avatar
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    I don't think you'll get many people here arguing against the idea that Starc is no.3 quick in this attack despite what the selectors might think. But that doesn't mean he isn't becoming a very good test bowler. Not great, and certainly not a patch on the white ball weapon he is, but more than worth selection in most actual test teams in history. For instance would have walked into every test side of the McWarne era, would have made Lillian Thompson sides even more devastating, and England probably would have lost the last Ashes 7-0 if 2017 Starc was bowling rather than 2013 Siddle. Even some of the great WI sides would have been stronger with some Starceh when then couldn't play 4 out of the superstars.

    It's easy to knock a bloke for getting tail enders, but a guy like Starc who can destroy a tail in a single spell is not to be sneezed at. Pissing off 8-11 for sfa has been the difference between winning or not winning so many times in Test history. Even if he never took a top order wicket, being able to consistently blast out the tail is valuable in and of itself. In the last two years he's been very good in Asia which is something not a lot of quicks can claim. So yeah he can be a bit inconsistent, but he's not really ever dire, just meh. But when he gets it right he's a wicket taker.

    In England yeah Anderson >>>>>>>>> Starc. But I don't think that holds true anywhere much else. He's going at more than 4 wickets per match and his strike rate is well inside the top 50 of bowlers with more than 20 Test poles and 11th of the guys with more than 100. That's some pretty serious weaponry for a guy most Australians would consider not quite as good as Cummins and Haze when they are at their best. If anything his strike rate indicates his average is a bit inflated by being a bit erratic at times and giving away four balls. But he complements the other three so well. Sometimes getting batsmen playing a few more shots is what gets the wicket.
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  6. #36
    TNT
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    Would England pick Starc if he was available to them, what about india or NZ would they pick him if he was available to them?.

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    International Captain stephen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TNT View Post
    Would England pick Starc if he was available to them, what about india or NZ would they pick him if he was available to them?.
    Anderson is the only quick that England would pick over Starc IMO.

    Starc would walk into any side in the world. Who wouldn't take a 150kph left arm quick? Even South Africa would make room for him IMO. Because despite his erratic-at-times bowling he takes a crap ton of wickets all around the world at a pretty good average. He's the ideal 3rd seamer.
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  8. #38
    International Captain adub's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stephen View Post
    Anderson is the only quick that England would pick over Starc IMO.

    Starc would walk into any side in the world. Who wouldn't take a 150kph left arm quick? Even South Africa would make room for him IMO. Because despite his erratic-at-times bowling he takes a crap ton of wickets all around the world at a pretty good average. He's the ideal 3rd seamer.
    Probably selling Broad a bit short there. Outside of England you'd have Starc in front of Anderson, but Broad would always be one of the first two quicks picked. Anderson, Broad, Starc looks a lot more threatening than anything they have been able to field in a long time.

    And no question Starc would waltz into the current SA team with guys like Steyn and Philander missing for a while now. If those two and Rabada were all fit maybe Starc wouldn't be an automatic pick, but would play before Morkel almost all of the time and none of those three are getting any younger.

    Starc would be the 2nd best quick India or NZ ever produced.

  9. #39
    Hall of Fame Member morgieb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adub View Post
    Probably selling Broad a bit short there. Outside of England you'd have Starc in front of Anderson, but Broad would always be one of the first two quicks picked. Anderson, Broad, Starc looks a lot more threatening than anything they have been able to field in a long time.

    And no question Starc would waltz into the current SA team with guys like Steyn and Philander missing for a while now. If those two and Rabada were all fit maybe Starc wouldn't be an automatic pick, but would play before Morkel almost all of the time and none of those three are getting any younger.

    Starc would be the 2nd best quick India or NZ ever produced.
    Not for the Kiwis he wouldn't. He's surely not better than Bond or Cowie.
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  10. #40
    International Coach zorax's Avatar
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    If Steyn/Rabada/Morkel/Philander are all fit I don't think Starc gets a game, and he might struggle to break through Southee/Boult/Wagner simply because of the loyalty the selectors have shown those 3 and how they've formed into a decent unit together, but he gets into every other side in the world pretty comfortably.
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  11. #41
    International Captain adub's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by morgieb View Post
    Not for the Kiwis he wouldn't. He's surely not better than Bond or Cowie.
    Ha, I just knew someone would throw up Bond's name.

    Look, I love me some Bond, but come on, the **** played a lot less tests than Bruce Reid FFS (67%). **** even Voges played more tests. Maybe coulda been an ATG had his body held together. It didn't - he isn't.

    Cowie obviously desperately unlucky to have the war take out his prime, but again 9 tests isn't really indicative of ****.

    Starc's record would place him with the 6th all time best NZ bowling average (20 wickets min), 4th all time SR, and 6th all time for wickets taken. So maybe not a clear cut 2nd to the Great Man, but well and truly in the argument.

  12. #42
    International Captain stephen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zorax View Post
    If Steyn/Rabada/Morkel/Philander are all fit I don't think Starc gets a game, and he might struggle to break through Southee/Boult/Wagner simply because of the loyalty the selectors have shown those 3 and how they've formed into a decent unit together, but he gets into every other side in the world pretty comfortably.
    The only reason Starc doesn't get a game for South Africa is because he's white. He plays ahead of Philander and Morkel otherwise.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by stephen View Post
    The only reason Starc doesn't get a game for South Africa is because he's white. He plays ahead of Philander and Morkel otherwise.
    Morkel maybe. No way he's better than Philander as of now. I still don't think people appreciate how consistently great Philander has been for the best part of 6 years now.
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  14. #44
    International Captain TheJediBrah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zorax View Post
    If Steyn/Rabada/Morkel/Philander are all fit I don't think Starc gets a game, and he might struggle to break through Southee/Boult/Wagner simply because of the loyalty the selectors have shown those 3 and how they've formed into a decent unit together, but he gets into every other side in the world pretty comfortably.
    Funny because I can't imagine any of those guys getting close to a full strength Australian side

  15. #45
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    Wagner is the most Australian fast bowler not to play for Australia.

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