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Thread: England disintegrating like in 2013-14 Ashes - Johnson

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodster View Post
    Lyon's bowled very well so far, I wouldn't say he's bamboozling us (so far) in the way others have in a series and hasn't picked up a five-for yet, so he's not exactly running through us. That said we do look short of any real plans in which to counter him and he is doing a fine job for the Aussies, mainly against our lefties, Chris Woakes the only right-hander he's dismissed so far.
    I'm not discrediting Lyon the bowler I am simply stating he is not good enough to be Australia's best weapon, which he is at the moment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Cat View Post
    England aren't failing because they're letting the Aussies **** them. They're failing because the Aussie bowling attack is better than they are. You had every pundit worth their salt saying this is a better attack than the group who whacked a better team 5-0 three years ago, a bloke with 150 Tests and million runs who looks clueless and one of the best bats in the world having to battle his knackers off to survive past 50 and their best player playing for a club in NZ. You think guys at their level don't have a gameplan or haven't once thought "Ohhh, we need to break up his rhythm! Of course!"?

    It's Test cricket. It's hard. A lot of what they're doing is working, they were right in the game after the Aussies batted in Brisbane and until day 5 in Adelaide. They're not hopeless and barely surviving, just not been good enough against a great attack.
    It isn't a great attack though, which is the whole point.

  3. #18
    Cricket Web Staff Member Woodster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Cat View Post
    England aren't failing because they're letting the Aussies **** them. They're failing because the Aussie bowling attack is better than they are. You had every pundit worth their salt saying this is a better attack than the group who whacked a better team 5-0 three years ago, a bloke with 150 Tests and million runs who looks clueless and one of the best bats in the world having to battle his knackers off to survive past 50 and their best player playing for a club in NZ. You think guys at their level don't have a gameplan or haven't once thought "Ohhh, we need to break up his rhythm! Of course!"?

    It's Test cricket. It's hard. A lot of what they're doing is working, they were right in the game after the Aussies batted in Brisbane and until day 5 in Adelaide. They're not hopeless and barely surviving, just not been good enough against a great attack.
    Look, this Aussie attack is very decent, whether its pace or spin, no question. Our batting line-up is both inexperienced, in the cases of Stoneman, Vince and Malan, and quite probably not good enough, but we are where we are and we have to pick someone. Yes when I say there is no game plan in place, of course this will have been discussed, but to watch it there does not appear any obvious plan to Lyon in particular. Of course it's tough, we're playing Australia in their own backyward, that said, this isn't a McGrath/Warne attack where you literally have to take a risk to score a run!

    The pressure is on Cook and Root to make the bulk of our runs, sadly they've both looked very much out of nick, positive signs that Root was finding his balance and his timing in his last innings. I don't blame the new Test batsmen I mentioned earlier, they're having to learn fast and it is avery difficult job for them. What we have tried so far hasn't worked, I personally would like to see a bit more positivity and general busyness against Lyon, I don't believe he's that good a spin bowler that we can't do that, no matter how tricky that may be.

    I haven't ever said these English batsmen are hopeless, a couple are out of their depth and the very best haven't yet shown up and they've been exposed agasint a very good (certainly not great) bowling attack. Despite our shortcomings, as you have pointed out, we have still got ourselves into some very good positions but we don't have the requisite quality to press home that advantage.
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  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodster View Post
    Look, this Aussie attack is very decent, whether its pace or spin, no question. Our batting line-up is both inexperienced, in the cases of Stoneman, Vince and Malan, and quite probably not good enough, but we are where we are and we have to pick someone. Yes when I say there is no game plan in place, of course this will have been discussed, but to watch it there does not appear any obvious plan to Lyon in particular. Of course it's tough, we're playing Australia in their own backyward, that said, this isn't a McGrath/Warne attack where you literally have to take a risk to score a run!

    The pressure is on Cook and Root to make the bulk of our runs, sadly they've both looked very much out of nick, positive signs that Root was finding his balance and his timing in his last innings. I don't blame the new Test batsmen I mentioned earlier, they're having to learn fast and it is avery difficult job for them. What we have tried so far hasn't worked, I personally would like to see a bit more positivity and general busyness against Lyon, I don't believe he's that good a spin bowler that we can't do that, no matter how tricky that may be.

    I haven't ever said these English batsmen are hopeless, a couple are out of their depth and the very best haven't yet shown up and they've been exposed agasint a very good (certainly not great) bowling attack. Despite our shortcomings, as you have pointed out, we have still got ourselves into some very good positions but we don't have the requisite quality to press home that advantage.
    In terms of career numbers, sure. But right now, he's bowling as well as anyone. Every England batsman has looked like **** against him so far. When the reputed weak link in a bowling attack is sending down world-class stuff, well good luck planning for that and then getting out there and executing said plan.
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    Lyon's actually been Australia's best bowler by a distance imo. Funny how all the talk before the series was about how the big demon fast bowlers Australia had would blow England away but really its been Lyon who's caused more problems than all of them.
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  6. #21
    Cricket Web Staff Member Woodster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Cat View Post
    In terms of career numbers, sure. But right now, he's bowling as well as anyone. Every England batsman has looked like **** against him so far. When the reputed weak link in a bowling attack is sending down world-class stuff, well good luck planning for that and then getting out there and executing said plan.
    He's bowling very well, I think you think I'm trying to take credit away from him by saying we're not playing him well and making him look better than he is. Maybe there is a bit of that. We need to find some way to put pressure back on him, our top order really don;t look like they've tried much at this stage, his bowling has improved that much that you can't just sit in and wait for a bad ball because he really hasn't given many in this series and he has looked a real threat.

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    Last time out we looked like we just didn't fancy facing the Australian quicks and Johnson in particular. So far this time around they have at least looked they are trying to fight it out and have won a few sessions. Some of the stories around the cricket have been a bit ridiculous. Player pours pint over team mate doesn't really seem big news, it happens at most rugby, cricket and football clubs once in a while.

    In these conditions Australia currently have better batsmen and bowlers, so they were always likely to win. You can only really make a strong case for 2 or 3 England players in a combined team.

    Lyon has become a very good spin bowler and the idea that he is there to be smashed around is not realistic. Yes we could do with getting a few more singles, but I'd rather battle it out than collapse in an I'll conceived effort to smash him out of the ground.

    Bowling wise most of our main bowlers have gone at 3 an over or less. They let themselves down bowling a foot short on the first day of the second test. The fact they haven't let the Australian batsmen really getting away from them says they are at least battling.

    They might disintegrate at some point over the next 3 tests, but so far they haven't. With the manpower available a 5 0 drubbing looks likely, but hopefully they can at least look like they are trying. Hopefully we can at least take all 5 tests to a fifth day and if you're competing you always stand a chance of sneaking home in one or two of the remaining fixtures.
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  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by oblongballs View Post
    It isn't a great attack though, which is the whole point.
    They look pretty great to me unless you are talking about a fifth option.
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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by oblongballs View Post
    It isn't a great attack though, which is the whole point.
    It actually is atm because it’s operating so well as a unit. As TC said, the fact the blokes are prepared to bowl dry and go for less rpo than usual means they’re prepared to do what it takes as a pack. There’s no Victorian medium pacer as third seamer this time, and Lyon is many times the bowler he was four years ago. There’s no let up. That’s what’s making it great.
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  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Cat View Post
    England aren't failing because they're letting the Aussies **** them. They're failing because the Aussie bowling attack is better than they are. You had every pundit worth their salt saying this is a better attack than the group who whacked a better team 5-0 three years ago , a bloke with 150 Tests and million runs who looks clueless and one of the best bats in the world having to battle his knackers off to survive past 50 and their best player playing for a club in NZ. You think guys at their level don't have a gameplan or haven't once thought "Ohhh, we need to break up his rhythm! Of course!"?

    It's Test cricket. It's hard. A lot of what they're doing is working, they were right in the game after the Aussies batted in Brisbane and until day 5 in Adelaide. They're not hopeless and barely surviving, just not been good enough against a great attack.
    They'd be wrong then.

    Johnson and Harris >>>>> 2017 vintage.

    I don't agree with Johnson in the slightest. A good England side went to Australia last time and fell apart. This is an unsettled England side that isn't particularly good who are being beaten by a side more at home at and better equipped to deal with the conditions.
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  11. #26
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    Yeah agree with that. This feels nothing like four years ago. While we could have performed better in each one, it’s not ended with me disgusted at what we’ve shown. Just disappointed. Burgey was chatting with me during Adelaide last time asking ‘what the **** has happened to these guys’ and I was shell shocked. Here it’s just that we have been second best.

    Don’t think we will lose 5-0 tbh

  12. #27
    Cricket Web Staff Member Burgey's Avatar
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    You can operate as a great attack without a great bowler or bowlers. England 2005 a good example. This Australian attack is operating on a similar basis - no let up, everyone doing their job. Lacks the pure explosiveness of Johnson and Harris 13/14, but the third and fourth bowlers this series are better than last time by a fair margin.
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    It is a great attack for these conditions. Sure the 13/14 version MJ and Rhino were way more than any two of our current pace trio, but Siddle was a clear step down in danger and this year's Lyno is light years away from the early model.

    So on balance I reckon it balances out and there is sfa to separate both attacks as a complete unit. (Barring the 5th option).

    If England had found a way to negotiate MJ and Rhino they would have been able to get back into the game. Against this attack there's just not the same option. The four bowlers all pose a serious threat, you can't get 'in' and get away when the opening bowlers are resting.

    And that's all before you acknowledge that Starc and Haze have only shown glimpses of their best. If those two get it right in the same spell they'd make a mess of better opposition than this.

    Both sides have massive issues with their batting, but England's are going to be more exposed in these conditions against such a well balanced attack for these pitches. Throwing a bunch of lefties at Lyon is just the tipping point that brings the whole thing crashing down.

    Australia's attack stays fit and we don't roll out roady roads and 5-0 is pretty much baked in. This attack is too complete and England's batting too weak to even bag a draw without a massive amount of help from the home side.
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  14. #29
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    Yep. I don't think I've ever seen an attack as good as ours at the moment. I've obviously seen attacks with better bowlers in it plenty of times but I've never before seen an attack where there is no obvious scoring option for batsmen.

    Starc is probably the guy to go after since he is the most erratic. But the problem with going after Starc is that he's bowling at 150kph and does a bit with the ball.

    Hazlewood has been nowhere near his best but he's still been very good. Cummins has looked unplayable at times. And Lyon has been dominating the batters like no finger spinner I've ever seen in Australia.

    When there are no obvious weak links in an attack the mental pressure gets very tough. You don't know where your next runs are going to come from, you begin to think more about survival than scoring and when that happens you get out.

    And England aren't exactly fielding Sutcliffe, Hobbs and Hutton as their top order. They have a badly out of form Cook, an unproven Stoneman, a pretty but ineffective Vince and Root (who is a damn fine batsman until he's in the 70s). With Ali batting above Bairstow and Malan in there, the top 7 doesn't give you a lot of confidence. Against a 70% Hazlewood, an erratic Starc, Cummins and god-mode Lyon the English batting simply doesn't have the firepower to post the big scores that they need to to win tests here.
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  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burgey View Post
    You can operate as a great attack without a great bowler or bowlers. England 2005 a good example. This Australian attack is operating on a similar basis - no let up, everyone doing their job. Lacks the pure explosiveness of Johnson and Harris 13/14, but the third and fourth bowlers this series are better than last time by a fair margin.
    I'm not convinced by Starc in this regard tbh.

    If I was making a composite attack I'd go for Harris, Johnson, Cummins and 2017 Lyon. If I was picking one attack I'd go with the 2013/14 attack because I think the gulf between Harris and Johnson and the rest of the bowlers in both attacks is enormous (save possibly Cummins).

    Johnson and Harris also wrecked a far better batting lineup in 2013/14.
    Last edited by Furball; 12-12-2017 at 05:14 PM.

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