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*Official* 2nd Test at Lord's

Burgey

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Surely the talk of playing Cummins is misinformation of some sort. They could not possibly be that ****ing stupid.
Really don't see why not. I wouldn't have picked him myself, but now he's in the squad he has to be in contention. Besides, he is a wicket taker, or at least he was three years ago when he last played a FC match....
 

Tangles

International Vice-Captain
Surely the talk of playing Cummins is misinformation of some sort. They could not possibly be that ****ing stupid.
Hasn't played a FC in ages or bowled more than 10 overs a day. What could possibly go wrong selecting him for a test where he may have to bowl 20?
 

Burgey

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Obvs it's not a huge deal, but you just got me wondering how many of the golden generation actually played much CC.

I don't remember Taylor or Marsh playing over here before they hammered our attack in 1989. Nor Boon, although he did play in 1985 before upping his game in 1989 and 1993. I suppose Border played (maybe for Essex). Did Steve Waugh play for Somerset for a while? And Mark Waugh at Essex for a while? I didn't think it was that many seasons, but I could be wrong. Did Martyn play any CC? I'm pretty sure Gilchrist didn't, but he was a genius tbf. I don't remember Slater playing in the CC either. Nor Ponting until he was relatively old. Even Blewett had some major innings in 1997, I think, but I don't recall him playing a lot of CC. Now it's quite possible I've forgotten some obvious cases, and it may well be I've completely forgotten about some of these guys playing for years in the CC, so be nice to me if my memory's playing up.
Taylor played League cricket iirc, and was asked not to return because he basically broke every batting record there was.

As an Essex CCC Member in good standing, I can report that the names of both Allan Border and Mark Waugh are indeed on the Honour Board at Chelmsford.

I thought Damien Martyn might have spent some time playing County stuff too. Lehmann did as well, not that he was a real regular at Test level. Can't recall whether Hussey did or not.
 

adub

International Captain
Hussey played heaps of County up to 2005. It was his far far superior record in CC to the Shield that probably got him a look in at test level. 6647 runs @ 73.85 with 19 tons and a best of 331* in only 59 matches.

His Test record in England after such a dominating CC record is really enigmatic.
 

Dan

Hall of Fame Member
Not relevant. Watson is one of, if not the worst batsmen to have played the number of Tests he has.
Nah, it is relevant IMO.

Boof wants an all-rounder, Watson was basically unopposed in that position until Marsh and Henriques started stringing some performances together at domestic level.
 

Tangles

International Vice-Captain
Watson was one of the top 6 purely in batting for a time. As much as I hate to say it out loud. That's why he got to open and stay in the team when he had a note from his Mum that he couldn't bowl.
 

Cabinet96

Global Moderator
Hussey played heaps of County up to 2005. It was his far far superior record in CC to the Shield that probably got him a look in at test level. 6647 runs @ 73.85 with 19 tons and a best of 331* in only 59 matches.

His Test record in England after such a dominating CC record is really enigmatic.
Yeah English people tend to think he was always awesome but just not picked, rather than a late bloomer, because of the county stuff.
 

FBU

International Debutant
I think they will go with
Rogers Warner Smith Clarke Marsh Watson Haddin Johnson Starc Hazelwood Lyon
 

FaaipDeOiad

Hall of Fame Member
Not relevant. Watson is one of, if not the worst batsmen to have played the number of Tests he has.
Of course it's relevant. How are you defining batsman? Because Watson certainly hasn't been picked on his batting alone for a fair while. If he didn't bowl I still think he'd probably have played some test cricket based on his FC and limited overs record but he'd have been dropped a while back. And if you just mean top 6 this isn't even close to true. I mean just for one example, Watson is definitely a better test batsman than Flintoff was. And there'd be many other examples of all-rounders who batted in the top 6 who have worse records. Watson averages 40 opening the batting ffs.
 

OverratedSanity

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Of course it's relevant. How are you defining batsman? Because Watson certainly hasn't been picked on his batting alone for a fair while. If he didn't bowl I still think he'd probably have played some test cricket based on his FC and limited overs record but he'd have been dropped a while back. And if you just mean top 6 this isn't even close to true. I mean just for one example, Watson is definitely a better test batsman than Flintoff was. And there'd be many other examples of all-rounders who batted in the top 6 who have worse records. Watson averages 40 opening the batting ffs.
Disingenuous comparison though as Flintoff's batting was his weaker suit.

Watson the worst batsmen among batting allrounders who've played this many tests? I dunno... find something where Watto can unanimously be called the worst at ffs. It's so satisfying.
 

cnerd123

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With regards to batsmen adapting vs bowlers - it's a lot hard for a batsman. Batting is a lot more instinctual than bowling. It relies heavily on your reflexes. You literally have no time to think.

Bowlers have it easy in comparison. Stand at the top of your mark, aim where you want it to go, and bowl. It can be hard to maintain an unnatural line or length when you aren't in rhythm, or are tired, but by and large it's easier to adapt the areas you bowl in as a bowler. You can adapt over the course of a match.

You can't as a batsman. Batsmen need to bat and bat and bat and drill the new technical adjustments into their brain before it shows. A test match or even a test series isn't the place to do that. All they can do then is just back their natural game and hope for the best. And it looks like it just didn't come off for Australia.

I agree with Top_Cat that it really depends what sort of game a batsman has. Few batsmen have the game to fit every wicket and every bowler. Every technique will have holes. It's easy to spot a flaw but pretty ****ing hard to fix it.
 

FaaipDeOiad

Hall of Fame Member
Disingenuous comparison though as Flintoff's batting was his weaker suit.

Watson the worst batsmen among batting allrounders who've played this many tests? I dunno... find something where Watto can unanimously be called the worst at ffs. It's so satisfying.
Of course Flintoff is in a completely different league as a test player and I'm not comparing them, but I think it's disingenuous to compare Watson to, say, Greg Blewett or Mark Ramprakash or any other disappointing test batsman with a long career and evaluate which of them had a worse record as batsman or which was luckier to play the number of tests they did or whatever. Unlike those players, Watson isn't being selected for his batting alone and would have been dropped some time ago if he didn't contribute to the bowling attack. He played a test in the 2010/11 Ashes as a batsman but he averaged 42 with the bat for his career then and was in form, probably the only time he's been picked and not bowled when he was definitely not worth the spot as a batsman was in the India tour in 2013. Possible I'm forgetting something. But the rest of the time he's been picked to bowl, and left out of the team when he couldn't bowl, even when he was fit to bat, like for the last South Africa tour. Pretty clear he's not a batsman like those other players were.

Anyway I still don't think the statement is true even if he was a specialist batsman. Watson's career as a batsman is bad but it's not Ramprakash bad. There have actually been times when he was one of the form batsmen in the team, he's had good series where he averaged over 50 over a number of matches etc. Plus he bowls and for periods in his career he was a pretty dangerous bowler as well. A poor career but not "one of if not the worst ever" to have a long career, that's a ridiculous claim.
 
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howardj

International Coach
I don't think there's much of a high-end for Watson any more

At best, he could wrinkle out a 50 in the next Test and take one or two poles.

By contrast, MMarsh excites me - and could really grab a game or a session by the ears

He's low point is no lower than Watson's, but his ceiling in the next Test is much greater
 

morgieb

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Yeah English people tend to think he was always awesome but just not picked, rather than a late bloomer, because of the county stuff.
His Shield average before he went to county cricket was around 45 IIRC, which is pretty damn good if you consider that the quality of Shield cricket back then was not that far off Tests. Dropped a bit in the 2000's though when he was dominating county stuff. For most other nations he'd have made his debut a fair bit earlier I think.
 

morgieb

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I think with Watson what people are forgetting that until his injury in 2011 he was a pretty damn good Test cricketer - for the two years from winning a full-time place in the side to his injury his batting average was 44 and his bowling average was 25 - any all-rounder would be thrilled with those figures. Yes digging deeper you could argue that his innings lacked impact and he didn't bowl enough, but he was more than worth his place in the side.

Since then however he's been pretty crappy. A combination of prior performances and lack of batting depth saved him for a while, but now there's little point for him in the Australian side.
 

FaaipDeOiad

Hall of Fame Member
4 tons in 59 Tests. You're right, there's loads of batsmen out there with worse records.
And 4 scores in the 90s, plus an 88. Would his record really be so much better if he'd gotten out for 100 instead of 93 or whatever? Of course it's important to convert a start into a good score but 100 isn't the only good score. Just a weird fixation on centuries. His batting average accurately represents his contributions as a batsman, he averaged 40 odd at his peak when he was really pretty decent without being a world beater but had some issues with converting starts into big scores, and 30 odd the last few years when he's been crap and would have been dropped if it wasn't for his bowling. He had some other issues as well but he still made the amount of runs he made. There's no way that makes him one of the worst batsmen ever to have a long test career, he's not even clearly the worst batsman from Australia to play a lot of tests in the last 20 years - Blewett's record for example is just as bad. And that's ignoring the fact that he's not being picked as a specialist batsman...
 
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