Worst of the whitewashes?

[GIMH]

Just watching some ashes thing on sky sports ashes


We probably did this at the time but now the dust has settled, for fellow England nationalists, which was the more hurtful defeat?


At the time of both I had high expectation.


Hindsight shows it to be completely ridiculous for both. But for different reasons. We would never have competed in 2006-07, but a lot of 2013-14 we engineered for ourselves.


We arrogantly assumed, and I include myself in this, that after the home summer, we would have too much over there for them. We ignored signs of recovery and that our formula was coming unstuck. Players were ageing or losing form (or both) - Swann, Trott, Pietersen. We picked Tremlett on the basis of three years prior. There was little in the way of plan B.


I think it's fair to say that even with the right decisions, selections, preparation, we'd have lost the Ashes anyway. Johnson put in the best series of fast bowling I've ever seen.


But plenty of times we had a foot on the throat with the ball only to let it go. The complacency, the poor choice of bowlers, this was massive in us conceding big leads that subsequently enabled Warner to tee off and kill each Test dead. As the series went on, we were declining mentally, physically, emotionally - probably the biggest similarity, score line aside, with 2006.


As I say, I think we were onto a loser at that point regardless. But we should have gone there and competed.


In 2005 we caught the Aussies unaware and they came back like a wounded animal. Probably the greatest side ever.


In 2013 we surrendered seven years of dominance over the old enemy by just assuming we could continue it. Watching it was like torture, everything you had enjoyed for four or five years unravelling in front of you. Knowing an era was well and truly over.


So yeah for me 2013-14 is probably my nadir of watching cricket. It sapped the ****ing life out of me.


Of course, after both we wound up with Peter ****ing Moores

 

[GIMH]

Inb4 furball tells us how he called 13-14 months in advance

 

[grecian]

Racist.

 

[Furball]

Inb4 furball tells us how he called 13-14 months in advance

Haha I never called the extent of the whitewash. I thought Australia would win the urn back because I had a few concerns over the make up of the side that was picked to tour down under (picking Rankin and Tremlett was a ****ing nonsense) but I certainly didn't call a 5-0.

Having said that, I opted to get up mega early to watch day 2 of the Brisbane test and tuned in when we were 80ish for 2. Just in time for one of the most spineless, ridiculous collapses I think I've ever seen. I just knew from then on it was going to be 5-0.

At least in 2006 they waited until day 5 Adelaide to capitulate. I actually went into that Test reasonably confident because KP and Collingwood had gotten a bit of time in the middle and scored a few runs in the 2nd dig at Brisbane, and the same 2 players took England to a position where they should never have lost from.

 

[Riggins]

06/07 was one of the best sides ever. They were obviously impressive but even before a match the result (series win, not 5-0) was never really in doubt. 13/14 was pretty shocking and kind of came out of nowhere, so I think that's worse.

 

[Pothas]

2013-14 way worse for me simply because of the fact I actually watched a lot of it, was at my first year of university for 06-07 and apart from a bit of TMS and a few highlights avoided it.

 

[Furball]

2013/14 could and probably should be the subject of a few books. There's simply no way that team should have lost the series 5-0, I'd love to know just what the **** was going on behind the scenes, or was it just that a team which collectively peaked together and who also crumbled together?

 

[Cabinet96]

Was more involved in 13/14 so that.

 

[Furball]

I think the English team's also in a pretty interesting place just now. You've got 4 senior players - Anderson who's probably past his ultimate peak but who's still world class, Bell who is definitely past his peak and on a decline (how severe that decline is remains to be seen), and Cook (9 years) and Broad (8 years) who have plenty of experience and who are coming into the peak of their careers. But there's absolutely nobody behind them with any sort of real experience - the next man is Joe Root with a mere 2 and a half years experience. 16 players debuted for England in between Broad's debut in 2007 and Root's debut in 2012 - why are none of them fixtures in the England side with 5 or so years experience behind them as a middle ground between the senior players and the less experienced players? There's definitely a lost generation in terms of talent IMO, but there's also been a few examples of really horrific management interspersed amongst that - KP for one (regardless of whether you think he should still be in the side, I don't think it's arguable that he should have been better managed), but also the likes of Finn have been managed terribly.

 

[Cabinet96]

2013/14 could and probably should be the subject of a few books. There's simply no way that team should have lost the series 5-0, I'd love to know just what the **** was going on behind the scenes, or was it just that a team which collectively peaked together and who also crumbled together?

Hopefully we can win next time in Australia and Dobell can write a book on the years in between.

 

[Furball]

I think it's interesting that 2013/14 mirrored 2006/07 in a lot of ways as well. Experienced, senior top order batsman breaking down mentally and having to go home, selection catastrophes (Anderson and Giles should never have been selected at Brisbane and probably shouldn't have been in the squad in 2006), a coach coming to the end of his cycle.

 

[dfrinku]

George Bailey.

 

[Uppercut]

I think the English team's also in a pretty interesting place just now. You've got 4 senior players - Anderson who's probably past his ultimate peak but who's still world class, Bell who is definitely past his peak and on a decline (how severe that decline is remains to be seen), and Cook (9 years) and Broad (8 years) who have plenty of experience and who are coming into the peak of their careers. But there's absolutely nobody behind them with any sort of real experience - the next man is Joe Root with a mere 2 and a half years experience. 16 players debuted for England in between Broad's debut in 2007 and Root's debut in 2012 - why are none of them fixtures in the England side with 5 or so years experience behind them as a middle ground between the senior players and the less experienced players? There's definitely a lost generation in terms of talent IMO, but there's also been a few examples of really horrific management interspersed amongst that - KP for one (regardless of whether you think he should still be in the side, I don't think it's arguable that he should have been better managed), but also the likes of Finn have been managed terribly.

There's a generation gap where the selectors tended to drop underperforming players a lot rather than stick with them and hope they improve. What should we make of Carberry, Compton, Robson and Lyth's England careers, and Root's brief time spent opening? I don't know that there were any big "mistakes" in there, generally there was some logic behind each of those decisions (Root opening perhaps excepted). But it's also true that players tend to get better the more test cricket they play, and that's five years of experience that England have completely wasted. There was maybe a time to say "these openers are all pretty ****e, let's just pick a young one with a good attitude, play him for a few years and see if he can learn to not be ****e". Which is sort of where Bell, Cook and Broad came from, all of those guys went through hate-figure spells before coming good.

 

[Furball]

There's a generation gap where the selectors tended to drop underperforming players a lot rather than stick with them and hope they improve. What should we make of Carberry, Compton, Robson and Lyth's England careers, and Root's brief time spent opening? I don't know that there were any big "mistakes" in there, generally there was some logic behind each of those decisions (Root opening perhaps excepted). But it's also true that players tend to get better the more test cricket they play, and that's five years of experience that England have completely wasted. There was maybe a time to say "these openers are all pretty ****e, let's just pick a young one with a good attitude, play him for a few years and see if he can learn to not be ****e". Which is sort of where Bell, Cook and Broad came from, all of those guys went through hate-figure spells before coming good.

I would say dropping Compton was a pretty big mistake; whilst he hadn't set the heather alight in his time opening he'd performed reasonably and formed a solid opening partnership with Cook. Bringing uncertainty to the top of the order with a fragile middle order where Collingwood still hadn't properly been replaced was stupid and could potentially have wrecked Root's career. Luckily, Root's someone they've identified as having the requisite talent and stuck with despite a difficult 2013, and that's paying dividends.

Fun fact: in an 8 year career, Andrew Strauss only had 2 opening partners: Marcuss Trescothick and Alistair Cook.
In his last 8 series (basically since Strauss has retired), Cook has had 6 different opening partners.

 

[Cabinet96]

I think it probably didn't help them that England were quite good, or at least had pretty high expectations at the time, along with having a few proven world class players. This meant the obvious weak links, whether it be 2nd opener, third seamer, etc, were more apparent. England were pretty **** for most of 2007 and 2008, they lost to pretty much every decent side they played (Sri Lanka and India away, India and SA at home). There probably would have been more calls to drop those players if it weren't for the fact no one else other than KP was anything to write home about, meaning any sign of talent might as well have been stuck with in hope that it would come good down the line. We're getting that a bit now tbh with guys like Buttler, Moeen and Ballance, but that attitude didn't really exist from 2009 Ashes win to the last whitewash. Worth noting calls to drop Cook didn't really arrive till 2010 either, even though he'd gone all through 2008 without a ton and had hit three in the 2009/10 season.

 

[Burgey]

Yeah 13/14 would blow hard if I was an England supporter. The Australian side was hardly a great one, and while I had hopes they would win, I would never have predicted 5-0. Australia played well, particularly with the ball, but England basically self immolated.

 

[Cabinet96]

Have to say Australia going to South Africa and doing what they did made me feel a lot better though. Johnson going over and first test taking 12 at their version of the Gabba made you really appreciate how good that side was playing, even if it was just an extreme peak for a few months.

 

[Howe_zat]

Dunno. They both sort of merged into an incoherent nothingness. There's cricket at night and every day you wake up with the same headlines. Time itself caeses to have meaning. You're stuck in a non-advancing Escher drawing of a series which only ends when the county season starts.

 

[Spikey]

I wasnt aware we whitewashed you ****s only two times

 

[GIMH]

I wasnt aware we whitewashed you ****s only two times

I wasn't alive for any others so