*Official* Fourth Test at the MCG

[Ponting is King]

Poms due for a wash, whitewash that is.

[Hurricane]

Cook plusses as captain

- he performs with the bat
- he doesn't panic with field settings and plays the percentages (I am commenting from multiple series as opposed to just this one)
- he is intelligent

Cook minuses

- he is not a natural leader. When interviewed by his highness Mark Nicholas he said that his favourite part of being captain was making decisions and being a part of the decision making group. A leader would have talked about his team and working with individuals to get the best out of them. In time when he has more experience he will come to value that the most and his answer will change.

Overall he is a keeper. England got to where they are through a pick and stick policy and they can't let this series lead to an over reaction of changes,

[3703]

Ok, here's the thing I just don't comprehend....I'll probably get accused of warmongering here but it is a genuine observation after living here for 20 years.

When your team wins or does well the first instinct for most Australians is not to celebrate your own success but to take the piss out of the beaten opposition.....I don't get it at all. A good example was the Adelaide test which I went to, every 50 and 100 the Aussies brought up in their innings was done so with a boundary (remarkable feat considering there was 11 such milestones in their 1st innings).......almost every Aussie around me greeted these boundaries with jeers and smart arse comments about the bowlers deliveries.........almost no recognition was given to bringing up another milestone in the innings.

Hookseys repeated posting of Englands stats for the series.......why the **** wouldn't he be more focused on what Australia did well than what we did badly??

Now don't get me wrong, I get into the banter side of things as much as the next person and a bit of taking the piss is certainly not out of order, the Ashes really are largely about bragging rights for the supporters after all........but it just seems strangely sad to me that for so many the belittling of the opposition is more important than the bigging up of your own mob???

Anyway, would be interested to hear others opinions on this......genuinely am not trying to start a fight here just sharing an observation.

Tall poppy syndrome. Ugly you might say, but true.

Standards for our own mob are implicitly sky high, both of what is expected, and what is possible. Glenn McGrath's talk of 5-0 is not really hot air, which is no doubt puzzling or crazy to a lot of people, but it's bewildering in the same sense that Australians don't grasp gallows humour, as Swanny pointed out recently.

It is assumed that you will bite and scratch and execute your skills. It is assumed that you will 'do' - AFL Hawthorn COACH JOHN KENNEDY SNR DO SOMETHING DO - YouTube

That is ingrained in the culture. But that's the key - doing - specifically how you do something. Michael Clarke making stacks of runs doesn't mean much when he has frosted tips and doesn't appear to buy into the culture or have a feral edge about him. He isn't a national hero for bringing the Ashes back, he's a national hero for threatening James Anderson and crushing an opponent with exactly the ferocity and brand of cricket people want to see. For showing a mongrel side. A hard edge. And for cutting an opponent with an inflated sense of position in this sport down to size. After all these years, we finally accept him. Not 2 odd years ago crowds were booing him around the country. We didn't like the way he appeared to go about things, and we weren't sure what sort of bloke he was.

There's a particular tall poppy sentiment towards English sides over the years because of the perceived soft underbelly. The perceived lack of dig-in, filthy fight and grit, to deliver when **** isn't going your way. The 2005 Ashes side is defined down here by how they backed up in 2006. It's all well and good to do it in England when McGrath steps on a ball, and there's nothing to lose and everything to gain, adrenaline pumping - but how do they front up when the pressure and spotlight are on, they're out of their comfort zone and they have to back up, against a side and nation out for blood. Cue the Harmison wide ball.

It's about what's behind the eyes. Who are you inside really, how do you win, are you a good winner, is there any mongrel about you; winning alone won't go close to garnering respect from the fans here. If you're really good, you better be a really good bloke too, you better not show off, and you better be someone of true character, or people will be rooting for you to fail. Nobody likes a ****ing showoff, and the one thing people want to see more than a victory is a pretender exposed and brought back to the pack by a pack of good honest battlers. Ugly and coarse it may be, others will say the right balance of it drives egalitarianism and brings the fair go for all bull**** into play and all that. I've always been on the fence about it.

If you get too good, you attract tall poppy attention regardless. Loads, and I mean loads of Australians didn't like the "great" Aussie cricket team, and actively supported against them. They're cocky, they're arrogant, they don't respect their opposition etc etc.. It wasn't a unified public behind them - you probably noticed this over the years.

Weird lot, that's for sure. Tall poppy is one of the strangest cultural phenomena on this planet imo.

[Adders]

That really is an excellent post.........quality stuff 3703!!

[Son Of Coco]

Wtf @ hooksey apparently liking this post 3 times?

It deserved at least three likes from Hooksey in my opinion.

[Son Of Coco]

Ok, here's the thing I just don't comprehend....I'll probably get accused of warmongering here but it is a genuine observation after living here for 20 years.

When your team wins or does well the first instinct for most Australians is not to celebrate your own success but to take the piss out of the beaten opposition.....I don't get it at all. A good example was the Adelaide test which I went to, every 50 and 100 the Aussies brought up in their innings was done so with a boundary (remarkable feat considering there was 11 such milestones in their 1st innings).......almost every Aussie around me greeted these boundaries with jeers and smart arse comments about the bowlers deliveries.........almost no recognition was given to bringing up another milestone in the innings.

Hookseys repeated posting of Englands stats for the series.......why the **** wouldn't he be more focused on what Australia did well than what we did badly??

Now don't get me wrong, I get into the banter side of things as much as the next person and a bit of taking the piss is certainly not out of order, the Ashes really are largely about bragging rights for the supporters after all........but it just seems strangely sad to me that for so many the belittling of the opposition is more important than the bigging up of your own mob???

Anyway, would be interested to hear others opinions on this......genuinely am not trying to start a fight here just sharing an observation.

I genuinely think it's because some people are way too touchy when the joke's on the other foot. I had people having a crack at me about the rugby World Cup was in Edinburgh in '03. Luckily, I didn't give a **** about the rugby. Was happy to talk cricket with them though.

We celebrate our wins. But it is extremely entertaining when given the chance to take the piss out of the Poms.

And generally speaking I think the tall poppy syndrome that has been talked about comes from people with no idea about the sport the person they're trying to cut down is involved in. People still say now Clarke shouldn't be in the team and or captain. And that's after he's scored a billion runs in the last couple of years and proven he's an excellent captain. Totally clueless.

[Jono]

If you get too good, you attract tall poppy attention regardless. Loads, and I mean loads of Australians didn't like the "great" Aussie cricket team, and actively supported against them. They're cocky, they're arrogant, they don't respect their opposition etc etc.. It wasn't a unified public behind them - you probably noticed this over the years.

Don't know about that. There were people would would perhaps want a contest more than what they were getting, as it got bored just battering teams. Sure some thought they were arrogant etc. but I don't really agree that "loads" didn't like that team.

The public had far more dislike for the Australian team of 2012-2013 which was losing and had Twatto and others failing than the great Australian team. I'd never seen so many people dislike the Australian team as they did earlier this year, sometime after the loss to South Africa and the ongoings in India (homework gate, Twatto captaining etc.)

[91Jmay]

Thing is, which Aussie side over the years displayed those supposed required characteristics? Most Aussie teams I can remember or have a historical perspective of are arrogant and disrespectful of the opposition. That seems to be the norm, not being 'a good bloke' at all.

[Riggins]

lol

[Arachnodouche]

Even Australia didn't persist with **** bowlers like Beer, Doherty, Agar, etc. England have, with someone as horribly pedestrian as Tim Bresnan for almost three years and that alone is reason sufficient for them to deserve to lose. You know that feeling you got from the old Australian sides, especially when they were batting, that they didn't particularly rank the opposition? It's back, at least against England, and I'm not sure it's going away anytime soon. You can pick Hughes and Khawaja to play against this rabble and they'll get going too.

There is absolutely nothing for England to take away from this series. No, not even Stokes. He's an honest cricketer and that's it. Root has technical issues and the old guard is past its sell-by. Darker days ahead.

[GotSpin]

There's no need for such in depth analysis. Australians like to win and take the piss out of the opposition in the process. It's all a bit of fun and certainly started when I was playing sport as a little kid.

Yeah sure, there's a few odd apples out there who cry 'arrogance' but they are in the great minority.

To say we don't appreciate our players doing well is absolute horse****. Some people just don't know much about cricket. Pretty simple stuff.

[Mark68]

Even Australia didn't persist with **** bowlers like Beer, Doherty, Agar, etc. England have, with someone as horribly pedestrian as Tim Bresnan for almost three years and that alone is reason sufficient for them to deserve to lose. You know that feeling you got from the old Australian sides, especially when they were batting, that they didn't particularly rank the opposition? It's back, at least against England, and I'm not sure it's going away anytime soon. You can pick Hughes and Khawaja to play against this rabble and they'll get going too.

There is absolutely nothing for England to take away from this series. No, not even Stokes. He's an honest cricketer and that's it. Root has technical issues and the old guard is past its sell-by. Darker days ahead.

Stokes has definite possibilities as a kind of minor Freddie if he develops his bowling. At present i think he is 4th change as a seamer but England should stick with him as a batsman for the moment. Who else scored a century on tour?