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Thread: *Official* Fifth Test at The Oval

  1. #3391
    Dan
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adders View Post
    I had all intentions of posting a bit of a smart arse comment to this but in light of all the other excellent postings that are being made I didn't want to be responsible for being the dick and dragging the thread down.

    I will say Ruckus though that you and your cricinfo mate would do well to look at England's record of the last few years and then look at Australias, I admire Clarkes balls but I'd rather have Cooks results.
    The argument against that (playing Devil's Advocate here, btw) is that Clarke's balls have improved Australia's results from where they would have been otherwise - declaring behind in the WI series one such example. I think it's safe to say Cook wouldn't have done that, and from that position the game would have been drawn. That could then potentially be coupled with the argument that if Cook captained with balls, he might well have ended up with even better results than he has achieved.

    Captaincy is hard to analyse like that, because it's inherently difficult to separate the captaincy from team performance.

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    International Captain Ruckus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prince EWS View Post

    They were scoring at the natural rate that allowed them to score as many runs as possible per wicket, which is a pretty natural sort of thing for Test cricket, especially the opposition scores 500 odd. Only Root, IMO, could really be accused of turning down easy scoring opportunities; the rest of the batsmen just struggled for timing on a slow wicket against some good bowling. They were neither chasing the game nor actively playing for the draw, which IMO was by far the best approach in the circumstances.
    Those are the points I would contest. I don't think the bowling was anything special; as I said before Harris and Lyon were the only impressive ones (even Harris I don't think was quite as good as he had been). The others were ok, but there was plenty more on offer than the Eng batsmen took advantage of imo. I also think the slow, difficult nature of the pitch has been overstated. Given that I don't think a natural rate of scoring should have been as slow. They might not have been deliberately thinking let's play out a draw here, but imo they were playing with some kind of negative attitude - along the lines of 'we are going to try and make it as difficult for Aus as possible to win this match'. I understand that Eng often play more defensively than some other teams, and that's what usually fits best with their line-up, but given the context of the series I think they could have been a bit more positive.

  3. #3393
    International Vice-Captain MW1304's Avatar
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    Tbf to Clarke and his declaration, I don't think many of us were expecting England to get anywhere near the chase at 5.5 rpo.

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    Cricket Web Staff Member Burgey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan View Post
    The argument against that (playing Devil's Advocate here, btw) is that Clarke's balls have improved Australia's results from where they would have been otherwise - declaring behind in the WI series one such example. I think it's safe to say Cook wouldn't have done that, and from that position the game would have been drawn. That could then potentially be coupled with the argument that if Cook captained with balls, he might well have ended up with even better results than he has achieved.

    Captaincy is hard to analyse like that, because it's inherently difficult to separate the captaincy from team performance.
    This. There's also an element of playing to the strength of your side. If you have a line up that's suited to batting in a more conservative way because of the player which make up the team, you have to tailor your captaincy accordingly, and vice versa. I don't know that Australia would have batted as England did in day three because the way out blokes play doesn't lend itself to doing so. They may play a little more circumspectly than they otherwise would, but if Clarke told his blokes to bat like England did day three they'd likely have tied themselves down to the extent they'd have got rolled anyway.


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    I lost count of the number of pull shots and cut shots which were so mistimed that they didn't get off the square on Day 3.

    That pitch was slow as hell. This really shouldn't be a point of contention.

    In the end, I think judging a captain by his results is about as valid a method of analysis as judging a game simply by looking at the scoreboard. It tells you a little, but far, far less than watching the actual cricket does. Ricky Ponting winning 16 Tests in a row did not make him a good tactician, the same logic applies here.
    Last edited by Spark; 26-08-2013 at 02:40 AM.
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    And with the declaration, what if England collapsed heavily? Then Clarke would've been seen as a genius.

    Yes it's one of those 'if my aunt had balls' issues now, but I imagine Clarke would've been thinking like that when he declared.
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    Hall of Fame Member Howe_zat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MW1304 View Post
    Tbf to Clarke and his declaration, I don't think many of us were expecting England to get anywhere near the chase at 5.5 rpo.
    I really think that getting bowled out in a session was much less likely than a fairly typical 40-over chase. Especially on that wicket.
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    International Captain Ruckus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spark View Post
    I lost count of the number of pull shots and cut shots which were so mistimed that they didn't get off the square on Day 3.

    That pitch was slow as hell. This really shouldn't be a point of contention.
    Prior didn't seem to gave a problem, nor did Eng in their second innings.

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    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by morgieb View Post
    And with the declaration, what if England collapsed heavily? Then Clarke would've been seen as a genius.

    Yes it's one of those 'if my aunt had balls' issues now, but I imagine Clarke would've been thinking like that when he declared.
    In the end, the nature of the pitch meant that there wasn't really any realistic chance of a victory because England could simply have shut up shop - which they are very good at - but I don't think he knows any other way than to have a crack. It's all well and good to say that Clarke might have given them a bit too much of a chance to win without sufficient compensation for us, but if he didn't do it then he wouldn't be Michael Clarke.
    Last edited by Spark; 26-08-2013 at 02:45 AM.

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    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruckus View Post
    Prior didn't seem to gave a problem, nor did Eng in their second innings.
    Because they were throwing the bat, ie. taking serious risks. What if one of the many thick edges off Prior had went to gully?

    You can do that when it's Day 5 and you probably won't lose the game. You can't that on Day 3 when you're 250, 300, 400 runs behind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by morgieb View Post
    And with the declaration, what if England collapsed heavily? Then Clarke would've been seen as a genius.

    Yes it's one of those 'if my aunt had balls' issues now, but I imagine Clarke would've been thinking like that when he declared.
    Of course he did. There's also the fact that Australia was in the position of striving to salvage something out of the series by virtue io their own ineptitude in earlier matches combined with England's good bowling. Both sides were playing te state of the match and the state of the series.

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    Wow. This is simply incredible.
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    International Captain Ruckus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spark View Post
    Because they were throwing the bat, ie. taking serious risks. What if one of the many thick edges off Prior had went to gully?

    You can do that when it's Day 5 and you probably won't lose the game. You can't that on Day 3 when you're 250, 300, 400 runs behind.
    None of the main batsmen except Pietersen were taking excessive risks in the second innings, they were pretty much playing normally. And that was their game plan - they were trying to go along at a pretty standard rate, and then would try and go for the chase when they knew wickets were in hand. Funnily enough as well I actually think Eng looked all the better for it.

  14. #3404
    International Vice-Captain MW1304's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howe_zat View Post
    I really think that getting bowled out in a session was much less likely than a fairly typical 40-over chase. Especially on that wicket.
    On the evidence of the wicket, and the way we batting in the previous innings, I'm not sure you could say it looked particularly likely from all the evidence. Although I agree bowling us out looked even more unlikely.

  15. #3405
    Cricket Web Staff Member Burgey's Avatar
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    It seems from the post match celebrations that England players have expressed their disappointment at the state of the pitch.
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