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Thread: *Official* Fifth Test at The Oval

  1. #2476
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Uppercut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by morgieb View Post
    Ironically I reckon some English bats are arguably more suited to Australia than England. Particularly Cook.

    But still, I think Australia will be close, if only because Australia will get conditions more suited to their style of play. 3-0 is still 3-0, but it hasn't accurately reflected the standards of each side IMO. We were robbed in Manchester by rain, went very close in the first test and threw away a strong position in the fourth test.
    I think it more or less has. It's been pretty close for most of the series but tests are regularly decided by which team has that one very good or very bad session. It's not exactly a fluke that only England's bowling has produced match-winning spells and only Australia's batting has produced match-losing spells.

    You did have some bad luck with rain in Manchester, though. Hardly a guaranteed win but I guess you were still favourites to force a result here before the rain came too. Maybe 3-1 would have been a fairer reflection.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GIMH View Post
    He certainly wasn't in career best form when he landed.

    The conventional decks in Oz suit him, but he did struggle there in 06-07.
    He was in career best form for every innings bar the first, which to a good approximation is the whole series. Certainly we basically bowled him into it, though... which is sort of the point. When you bowl that badly, it doesn't matter all that much what the pitches are like. And your second point is sort of what we're saying.

    I mean, Cook is a bloody good player, but what we've done to him this time is not exactly rocket science, it's not some new and incredible plan that's come out of nowhere. People have been saying for an age that bowling to Cook is simply a matter of staying out of his scoring zones. If you can't blast him out early, starve him so by the time he does get out, as everyone does, he's not made all that many runs - and it just so happens that the area where he's most vulnerable is the area where he can't score. It's almost PEWS's point with Khawaja, just... to a much, much better batsman. The pitches being quicker and bouncier won't really change that.
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  3. #2478
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uppercut View Post
    I think it more or less has. It's been pretty close for most of the series but tests are regularly decided by which team has that one very good or very bad session. It's not exactly a fluke that only England's bowling has produced match-winning spells and only Australia's batting has produced match-losing spells.

    You did have some bad luck with rain in Manchester, though. Hardly a guaranteed win but I guess you were still favourites to force a result here before the rain came too. Maybe 3-1 would have been a fairer reflection.
    I think we would have won OT pretty comfortably given a full day's play, tbh. That pitch was starting to do some seriously odd things.

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  5. #2480
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spark View Post
    I think we would have won OT pretty comfortably given a full day's play, tbh. That pitch was starting to do some seriously odd things.
    It looked tough for batsmen but that's partly because it was damp and overcast. You'd have been seriously lucky to get conditions like that for a full day in Manchester without losing any play. Who knows really, I'm just happy to shove it in the "maybe" pile.

  6. #2481
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spark View Post
    I think we would have won OT pretty comfortably given a full day's play, tbh. That pitch was starting to do some seriously odd things.
    You'd have thought so but it's quite rare that we get bowled out in that match situation. I think it would have gone to the wire for sure.

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    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GIMH View Post
    You'd have thought so but it's quite rare that we get bowled out in that match situation. I think it would have gone to the wire for sure.
    True, but the pitches you're thinking of have generally been pretty dead. The way that deck behaved in the few deliveries we bowled after lunch... really don't think you'd have got anywhere near saving it, simply because there would have been too many balls with a batsman's name on it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spark View Post
    I mean, Cook is a bloody good player, but what we've done to him this time is not exactly rocket science, it's not some new and incredible plan that's come out of nowhere. People have been saying for an age that bowling to Cook is simply a matter of staying out of his scoring zones. If you can't blast him out early, starve him so by the time he does get out, as everyone does, he's not made all that many runs - and it just so happens that the area where he's most vulnerable is the area where he can't score. It's almost PEWS's point with Khawaja, just... to a much, much better batsman. The pitches being quicker and bouncier won't really change that.
    The point people are making is that pace and bounce shaves a good chunk off your margin for error when executing that particular plan. It's harder to get an lbw and he can cut and pull off a fuller length.

  9. #2484
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    Quote Originally Posted by Son Of Coco View Post
    Based on what? The fact we dished up a platter of pies to him last time? Hopefully we bowl better to him this summer. If we do and he still scores a ****load of runs then I'll go with what you said.
    I trust Cook's record in the Southern Hemisphere. I can see him getting 450-550 runs and two centuries as his record would suggest. I look forward to being proven wrong, will be a cracking series with a neutered Cook.

    Quote Originally Posted by Son Of Coco View Post
    And I'm surprised to hear England didn't struggle with the might of the Indian pace attack on green tops whilst they skittled the Indian batsmen on their favourite type of wicket
    My point is that aside from Ryan Harris, who is probably 33% likely to play four consecutive tests again, Australia don't have a brilliant pace attack. Consistency has been key and on pitches with a bit more zip and bounce it is much harder to be consistent than on the lifeless roads they have been asked to bowl on in this series. However, credit to the Australian bowlers for being tighter than England.

  10. #2485
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uppercut View Post
    The point people are making is that pace and bounce shaves a good chunk off your margin for error when executing that particular plan. It's harder to get an lbw and he can cut and pull off a fuller length.
    True, but it's not significant enough to become anywhere close to outweighing the simple quality of the batting and bowling. I mean, our attack has done well over the last few years at home by pitching it up and getting movement, not banging it in short of a length, so it's not like they don't know how to do it.

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    you know, Cook's played 4 Ashes series and he's averaged under 30 in 3 of them....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uppercut View Post
    The point people are making is that pace and bounce shaves a good chunk off your margin for error when executing that particular plan. It's harder to get an lbw and he can cut and pull off a fuller length.
    Yeah, this is true. The ideal length to bowl to Cook is the one that is short enough to not completely come to the bat as a half volley but full enough to still be hitting the stumps. To be fair this sounds like a pretty nifty length to bowl to any batsman but it works particularly well to Cook because he can't drive on the up at all and really relies heavily on the cut. In Australia there's less movement in the air which is a factor but most importantly, the area short of half volley length but still full enough to hit the stumps is really, really small compared to that area on English tracks.

    I don't think Cook will be averaging 50+ out here again either unless he actually finds a way to counter the plan, but it's a much harder plan to execute in Australia than England IMO so he should do better.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prince EWS View Post
    Yeah, this is true. The ideal length to bowl to Cook is the one that is short enough to not completely come to the bat as a half volley but full enough to still be hitting the stumps. To be fair this sounds like a pretty nifty length to bowl to any batsman but it works particularly well to Cook because he can't drive on the up at all and really relies heavily on the cut. In Australia there's less movement in the air which is a factor but most importantly, the area short of half volley length but still full enough to hit the stumps is really, really small compared to that area on English tracks.

    I don't think Cook will be averaging 50+ out here again either unless he actually finds a way to counter the plan, but it's a much harder plan to execute in Australia than England IMO so he should do better.
    This was entirely my point. Not a comment on the Australia attack Spark, so I'm not sure why you're bringing them up.

  14. #2489
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    Yeah I don't think he'll be averaging 25-odd again. But this idea that he'll most likely have a 450-500+ run series just because the pitches are bouncier seems a bit off-base to me.

    EDIT: The point about the Australia attack is that they know how to get batsmen out with full-pitch bowling even on Australian decks, so they shouldn't completely lose their minds.
    Last edited by Spark; 24-08-2013 at 08:37 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain_Cook View Post
    Don't think because England had dry pitches prepared means that those are the conditions they like to bat in. They whitewashed India on green-tops in 2011. The pitches were prepared to confer a spin bowling advantage as it was perceived Swann > Lyon which hasn't bee entirely correct.

    I can't speak for Root but Cook would bat in Australia any day. If Cook was playing half his tests in Australia his record would be amazing.
    They were standard English pitches, to call them greentops is an excuse trotted out by the Indian side as a reason for why they got beat, while coincidentally not explaining why only one of their bowlers did anything of note.



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