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Thread: Who is really to blame for Australia's batting collapses post 2007 in Ashes series?

  1. #76
    International Captain Ruckus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TumTum View Post
    I know, was thinking we were only talking about the Ashes though as the title said.
    The answer to the thread title is that we have had multiple batsmen who have been incessantly out of form. Ponting, Hussey and North are obviously the main offenders. The good starts given by Watson and Katich wouldn't even be mentioned if Ponting managed to get decent scores more than he has been. He has been getting out for very low scores far too often. Same goes for Hussey and North. 3 crucial batsmen out of form = high chance of collapse. Can't expect the 3 in form batsmen to always save the day.

    Edit: Talking about in general, not specifically the Ashes.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeusEx View Post
    The answer to the thread title is that we have had multiple batsmen who have been incessantly out of form. Ponting, Hussey and North are obviously the main offenders. The good starts given by Watson and Katich wouldn't even be mentioned if Ponting managed to get decent scores more than he has been. He has been getting out for very low scores far too often. Same goes for Hussey and North. 3 crucial batsmen out of form = high chance of collapse. Can't expect the 3 in form batsmen to always save the day.

    Edit: Talking about in general, not specifically the Ashes.
    From another point of view, if the in form batsmen actually cash in with big runs they could easily cover the lack of form for the other batsmen. Fact is, they've criminally failed when well set.
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  3. #78
    Global Moderator vic_orthdox's Avatar
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    Think there's too much focus on "form" in here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeusEx View Post
    The answer to the thread title is that we have had multiple batsmen who have been incessantly out of form. Ponting, Hussey and North are obviously the main offenders. The good starts given by Watson and Katich wouldn't even be mentioned if Ponting managed to get decent scores more than he has been. He has been getting out for very low scores far too often. Same goes for Hussey and North. 3 crucial batsmen out of form = high chance of collapse. Can't expect the 3 in form batsmen to always save the day.

    Edit: Talking about in general, not specifically the Ashes.
    wtf


  5. #80
    International Coach GotSpin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vic_orthdox View Post
    Think there's too much focus on "form" in here.
    Some players *cough North cough* are never in form tbf

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Got_Spin View Post
    From another point of view, if the in form batsmen actually cash in with big runs they could easily cover the lack of form for the other batsmen. Fact is, they've criminally failed when well set.
    'Sigh'... I just spent the past hour discussing that point (in which I disagree) with other people haha...sorry but I can't be bothered going into it again in detail. Basically my argument in short is: Watson and Katich have actually been averaging very well, and that is all that matters lol...

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by TumTum View Post
    wtf
    yeah sorry haha I missed that. But I think the thread title is probably too specific, because our problems have been in general, not just affecting the Ashes.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeusEx View Post
    'Sigh'... I just spent the past hour discussing that point (in which I disagree) with other people haha...sorry but I can't be bothered going into it again in detail. Basically my argument in short is: Watson and Katich have actually been averaging very well, and that is all that matters lol...
    I haven't been following CW so I wouldn't know.

    I know they're averaging very well, but it's not helping the team when they fold after getting to a half century.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Got_Spin View Post
    I haven't been following CW so I wouldn't know.

    I know they're averaging very well, but it's not helping the team when they fold after getting to a half century.
    That's true, but seeing as though they are still averaging well it is wrong to expect more from them - i.e. by wanting them to convert more, is essentially wanting them to average 60-70+. We shouldn't have to have certain players putting in superhuman efforts to cover for our underperforming batsmen.

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    Exactly. Even if Ponting is coming in at 1/0, he is still good enough to make runs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeusEx View Post
    That's true, but seeing as though they are still averaging well it is wrong to expect more from them - i.e. by wanting them to convert more, is essentially wanting them to average 60-70+. We shouldn't have to have certain players putting in superhuman efforts to cover for our underperforming batsmen.
    This is not about averages as such though. When a top order batsmen makes a start, he needs to make it something big. Getting out between 30-55, while looking good statistically, doesn't help the team at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Got_Spin View Post
    This is not about averages as such though. When a top order batsmen makes a start, he needs to make it something big. Getting out between 30-55, while looking good statistically, doesn't help the team at all.
    Helps see off the new ball almost every innings.

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    The discussion here can be understood by taking the examples of Watson and Ponting.

    Watson has been in really good form and has not been converting his 50s into 100s or big 100s during this run of form. When Ponting was in really good form, he was converting every other 50 into a 100. This is reflected in the fact that Watson's average in his good form is around the 45-50 mark and Ponting was around the 65 mark.

    When Ponting has hit bad form, his conversion has gone down, so have the number of starts and so has his average to around 40. When Watson hits bad form, his average will drop lower. Or even if it is around the 40 mark, he would have wasted his good form by averaging only 50 in that period of good form.

    Most top class batsmen in top form would have averages around the 65 range and not 45-50 which Watson has, and that can be achieved only by converting starts into 100s.

    Yes, one can argue simplistically that scoring 50 in every innings does the job. But that's not how real life works :

    1. The batsman will invariably go through a form slump.

    2. In any particular test innings on a normal track, typically 2-3 of the top 7 do fail.

    3. During any particular time, there are going to be batsmen in the line up who are not in the best form of their lives. To cover up for their lower output during this productivity slump, the batsman in form needs to score big.
    Last edited by Hit Wicket; 07-12-2010 at 11:08 PM.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hit Wicket View Post

    Most top class batsmen in top form would have averages around the 65 range and not 45-50 which Watson has, and that can be achieved only by converting starts into 100s.
    Last year Watson DID average 65 and only made 1 hundred.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hit Wicket View Post
    The discussion here can be understood by taking the examples of Watson and Ponting.

    Watson has been in really good form and has not been converting his 50s into 100s or big 100s during this run of form. When Ponting was in really good form, he was converting every other 50 into a 100. This is reflected in the fact that Watson's average in his good form is around the 45-50 mark and Ponting was around the 65 mark.

    When Ponting has hit bad form, his conversion has gone down, so have the number of starts and so has his average to around 40. When Watson hits bad form, his average will drop lower. Or even if it is around the 40 mark, he would have wasted his good form by averaging only 50 in that period of good form.

    Most top class batsmen in top form would have averages around the 65 range and not 45-50 which Watson has, and that can be achieved only by converting starts into 100s.

    Yes, one can argue simplistically that scoring 50 in every innings does the job. But that's not how real life works :

    1. The batsman will invariably go through a form slump.

    2. In any particular test innings on a normal track, typically 2-3 of the top 7 do fail.

    3. During any particular time, there are going to be batsmen in the line up who are not in the best form of their lives. To cover up for their lower output during this productivity slump, the batsman in form needs to score big.
    Ponting is a far better player than Watson, you can't compare them that easily.

    You are assuming Watson is in good form, we haven't even seen him perform badly yet to get a true idea of his form.

    Problem is those 2-3 of the top 7 fail on a consistent basis. You must allow for a few failures from the openers as well, but so far they are doing their job well, you can't expect them to score big knowing how fragile the rest of the line-up is.

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