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Thread: KP has his swagger back!

  1. #16
    International Coach tooextracool's Avatar
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    Meh, I think these are just tags that people like to stick on people after a few notable performances that stay with them for life. For example, 'Bell is a bit soft' or Collingwood is a 'dogged fighter'. Not that it isnt true in some cases (like in Collingwood's) but its a little bit silly when you have to use performances from 5 years ago to justify the logic behind it.
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  2. #17
    International Coach tooextracool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodster View Post
    Tbf, the fact that Bangladesh is the only country he has not scored a hundred against suggests they haven't seen his best. Yes he's a step above their bowlers but he clearly hasn't made them pay when you consider what he's capable of. Two not outs in seven innings goes some way top explaining his high average. I hardly think that counters my argument, and it's not that he cannot motivate himself to perform against sides such as Bangladesh, he just prefers the bigger occasions!!
    The last time KP played a knock on a big occasion was when he became captain (which was 2.5 years ago). This obviously leads down the route that hes failed on pretty much every big occasion since then and that includes the 2009 Ashes and the away series in South Africa. His record on the big stage is not as good as people make it out to be IMO.
    Last edited by tooextracool; 06-12-2010 at 02:35 PM.

  3. #18
    Cricket Web Staff Member Woodster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tooextracool View Post
    The last time KP played a knock on a big occasion was when he became captain (which was 2.5 years ago). This obviously leads down the route that hes failed on pretty much every big occasion since then and that includes the 2009 Ashes and the away series in South Africa. His record on the big stage is not as good as people make it out to be IMO.
    As the article says, it was his first hundred for over 18 months, so clearly he has not been in the kind of form associated with a player of his calibre. The 2009 Ashes, he was clearly struggling, and only managed two games!

    You're clearly focusing on his away series in SA, not the home on where he averaged over 60, the convenient thing about stats based opinions is being selective which ones you use.

    It's clearly a point we will struggle to agree on, that's the way it goes.
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  4. #19
    Eternal Optimist / Cricket Web Staff Member GIMH's Avatar
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    I know we're talking Tests, but he was MOTT in the T20 WC, our first ever global triumph. Fairly big stage.
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  5. #20
    International Coach tooextracool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howe_zat View Post
    Trying to find any measure of patterns or consistency in KP's record is a bit of a thankless task to be honest. From Andy Zaltzman:
    I actually tend to agree with this. I dont think theres any pattern in Pietersen's performances. Think every time he scores people justify it as 'oh its the big stage, he always performs on the big stage', yet we've probably seen more brainless dismissals in big match situations where he could really have made a name for himself.

  6. #21
    Cricket Web Staff Member Woodster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tooextracool View Post
    Meh, I think these are just tags that people like to stick on people after a few notable performances that stay with them for life. For example, 'Bell is a bit soft' or Collingwood is a 'dogged fighter'. Not that it isnt true in some cases (like in Collingwood's) but its a little bit silly when you have to use performances from 5 years ago to justify the logic behind it.
    It is the history of the cricketer that forms people's opinions. Collingwood is classed as a dogged fighter because there have been countless examples of him digging his side out of trouble through sheer hard graft. Bell, until recently, had not proved he could perform on a consistent basis when it was absolutely necessary, so people would always pigeon-hole him into the soft category. Understandable, although an allegation I was confident he would overcome.

  7. #22
    Cricket Web Staff Member Woodster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeraintIsMyHero View Post
    I know we're talking Tests, but he was MOTT in the T20 WC, our first ever global triumph. Fairly big stage.
    Absolutely mate, there are a number of such examples.

  8. #23
    International Coach tooextracool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodster View Post
    As the article says, it was his first hundred for over 18 months, so clearly he has not been in the kind of form associated with a player of his calibre. The 2009 Ashes, he was clearly struggling, and only managed two games!

    You're clearly focusing on his away series in SA, not the home on where he averaged over 60, the convenient thing about stats based opinions is being selective which ones you use.

    It's clearly a point we will struggle to agree on, that's the way it goes.
    Ok, lets talk about the home series against SA then. The stage was set for him in the 2nd innings at Edgbaston, when he made 94 in the 2nd dig, to play a match winning knock and take the game away from South Africa but he ended up playing arguably one of the worst shots of his career with serious consequences that ultimately cost England (and Collingwood) the game and the series.

    Of course people will always rave about his century in his first test as captain in a dead rubber game as being the 'big stage' when arguably he went missing in the 2 tests where he was needed the most.

  9. #24
    Cricket Web Staff Member Woodster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tooextracool View Post
    Ok, lets talk about the home series against SA then. The stage was set for him in the 2nd innings at Edgbaston, when he made 94 in the 2nd dig, to play a match winning knock and take the game away from South Africa but he ended up playing arguably one of the worst shots of his career with serious consequences that ultimately cost England (and Collingwood) the game and the series.

    Of course people will always rave about his century in his first test as captain in a dead rubber game as being the 'big stage' when arguably he went missing in the 2 tests where he was needed the most.
    Yes and 94 is a complete failure ??? He continued to bat positively, whether he's 94 or 24, that's how he plays. Don't think you can isolate a particular shot and say he failed on the big stage. Worse shot of his career ? Do me a favour. What about his 152 in the first Test of that series, his first Test against his homeland, at Lords ?? Hey, it's probably convenient if we forget that one.

    Don't think anyone on here is suggesting he always makes the right decision, 100% of the time.

  10. #25
    International Coach tooextracool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeraintIsMyHero View Post
    I know we're talking Tests, but he was MOTT in the T20 WC, our first ever global triumph. Fairly big stage.
    Indeed, was a pretty big stage. Anyways, my point is not that he is a bad player on the big stage. Just that hes not as good as he is made out to be. I think there are others that perform just as frequently on the big stage - for example collingwood, but with Pietersen it is every time he performs is considered to be on 'the big stage' and every time he fails it is considered an 'inconsequential' series.

  11. #26
    International Coach tooextracool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodster View Post
    Yes and 94 is a complete failure ??? He continued to bat positively, whether he's 94 or 24, that's how he plays. Don't think you can isolate a particular shot and say he failed on the big stage. Worse shot of his career ? Do me a favour. What about his 152 in the first Test of that series, his first Test against his homeland, at Lords ?? Hey, it's probably convenient if we forget that one.

    Don't think anyone on here is suggesting he always makes the right decision, 100% of the time.
    No but you brought up that series as an example of him performing on the big stage. I'm just pointing out that perhaps when the stage was set for a big 'Pietersen innings' he disappointed. In the grand scheme of things that was a pivotal moment in the match.

    The 100 in his first test as captain was really a meaningless knock in a dead rubber. It gets more credit than it deserves.

  12. #27
    Hall of Fame Member Furball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tooextracool View Post
    Ok, lets talk about the home series against SA then. The stage was set for him in the 2nd innings at Edgbaston, when he made 94 in the 2nd dig, to play a match winning knock and take the game away from South Africa but he ended up playing arguably one of the worst shots of his career with serious consequences that ultimately cost England (and Collingwood) the game and the series.

    Of course people will always rave about his century in his first test as captain in a dead rubber game as being the 'big stage' when arguably he went missing in the 2 tests where he was needed the most.
    Yeah, that 2nd dig was all Pietersen's fault. We'll just ignore Strauss, Cook, Vaughan and Bell making 71 runs between them.

  13. #28
    International Coach tooextracool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GingerFurball View Post
    Yeah, that 2nd dig was all Pietersen's fault. We'll just ignore Strauss, Cook, Vaughan and Bell making 71 runs between them.
    Thats not the point I'm getting at here. It wasn't Pietersen's fault that England lost, but much like Michael Clarke's innings yesterday it was necessary for him and Collingwood to get a big score in order for England to have a chance in the game. In that sense, his dismissal was a job half done.

    My point here is that a tiny handful of innings in big match situations doesnt make someone a 'big match' player, especially when the majority of them came 5 years ago.

  14. #29
    Cricket Web Staff Member Woodster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tooextracool View Post
    No but you brought up that series as an example of him performing on the big stage. I'm just pointing out that perhaps when the stage was set for a big 'Pietersen innings' he disappointed. In the grand scheme of things that was a pivotal moment in the match.

    The 100 in his first test as captain was really a meaningless knock in a dead rubber. It gets more credit than it deserves.
    You're still ignoring the series opener, at Lords, against South Africa, for KP it probably doesn't get much bigger than that, except for the Ashes. Yet he smashed 152 and set England up in a winning position of which we could not quite capitalise. First game as captain is undoubtedly huge also, and he scored another ton. You can kinda see where people get the 'big occasion' thing from.

    But let's agree to disagree, and focus on his return to form, regardless of the occasion.

  15. #30
    International Coach tooextracool's Avatar
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    I also don't believe in the notion that he cant motivate himself to perform against the lesser quality teams. Hes thrashed some pretty poor WI bowling attacks around and hes owned some of the worst bowling sides. If anything his record against the best bowling pace bowling attacks (barring Australia) is more questionable than his record against the lesser attacks.

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