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Thread: *Official* First Test at the Gabba

  1. #766
    Englishman BoyBrumby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by howardj View Post
    Exactly.

    Don't underestimate the stupidity of these selectors in picking Siddle over Doug, on merit.
    Putting the cart before the horse, IMHO. Bollinger would be the safe pick, but if the selectors go with Siddle and he takes a bagfull I don't think anyone (Dicko probably excepted) could claim it was a stupid decision.

    I know he's a bit of a cult (), but DtR isn't McGrath (or, given his bowling arm, Davidson) incarnate. &, I know stats can be used to prove anything, but to provide some justification for the selectors if they go that way Siddle's record at the Gabba, whilst based on a very small sample size, is better than Bollinger's who has taken his wickets there at 44 apiece.
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  2. #767
    International Coach morgieb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoyBrumby View Post
    Putting the cart before the horse, IMHO. Bollinger would be the safe pick, but if the selectors go with Siddle and he takes a bagfull I don't think anyone (Dicko probably excepted) could claim it was a stupid decision.

    I know he's a bit of a cult (), but DtR isn't McGrath (or, given his bowling arm, Davidson) incarnate. &, I know stats can be used to prove anything, but to provide some justification for the selectors if they go that way Siddle's record at the Gabba, whilst based on a very small sample size, is better than Bollinger's who has taken his wickets there at 44 apiece.
    Regardless if he took a hatful, it'd feel very harsh on Dougie who's gone an awesome job for us to be replaced by someone just because the selectors seem to love them.

    Also, since when has Dougie played at the Gabba at test level? Also, FC form should be Sweet FA (for example, Bollinger was useless pre-2006) - it's down to how well they've bowled at test level.
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  3. #768
    Englishman BoyBrumby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by morgieb View Post
    Regardless if he took a hatful, it'd feel very harsh on Dougie who's gone an awesome job for us to be replaced by someone just because the selectors seem to love them.

    Also, since when has Dougie played at the Gabba at test level? Also, FC form should be Sweet FA (for example, Bollinger was useless pre-2006) - it's down to how well they've bowled at test level.
    TBH, given some of the test batting line ups Bollinger's faced so far in his career, QLD's is probably at least on a par.

    Aside from the obvious point that it's non-test form that invariable leads to a player's initial call up, whether that form is in FC, ODIs or what have you. FC form arguably the best guage of potential for tests too, although (hey Graeme!, hey Mark!) not always.

  4. #769
    International Coach pup11's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prince EWS View Post
    Missing the point tbh. People don't say Bollinger's First Class record is inflated by unsuited home pitches.. because he averaged in the teens for two seasons running before getting picked and topped the Shield wicket tally.

    When Hauritz first came into the team, all the talk was about how Australian pitches were terrible for spinners and that his First Class average wasn't representative of how he'd do around the world, and now that he's cleaned up lower orders after the opening bowlers have run through weak batting lineups at home, he's suddenly unsuited to conditions abroad but a good bowler at home. What people are saying is that the pitches at home don't suit him, and that the pitches abroad don't suit him. Doesn't seem like a very good bowler based on that, does he?
    I think you are missing the point that most of the FC pitches are pretty much tailor-made to suit the quicks, and they nothing like the test pitches that are used in Australia.
    With Hauritz... fact is that India was virtually the only horrific tour he had in his short test career, and even though he went for runs he took pretty much the same amount of wickets as any other Australian bowler on that tour.
    Its just a shame when you just shun blokes likes this without giving them the slightest of leeway and it only creates an air of insecurity for other blokes, I'm pretty sure that Doherty already realises that if he doesn't do well at the Gabba then he might not play more than a single test for Australia.
    Now.. when you create such an atmosphere around the team, where as a player a sword is always hanging over you, then I think it becomes almost impossible to blood in new players especially spinners.


  5. #770
    International Coach pup11's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tooextracool View Post
    Should think that the fact that the England side consists predominantly of right handers with the exception of the 2 openers may have also influenced that decision. Not to mention that the most influential batter in the side has a real weakness to left arm spin.
    Doherty is not much of spinner of the cricket ball though, he pretty much depends on his arm-ball and straight delivery and predominantly bowls a flatter quickish tragectory.
    As an Aussie fan would like to see him do well, but I would be pretty surprised if he troubles the English batsmen much, of course KP is the only exception there.

  6. #771
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pup11 View Post
    I think you are missing the point that most of the FC pitches are pretty much tailor-made to suit the quicks, and they nothing like the test pitches that are used in Australia.
    With Hauritz... fact is that India was virtually the only horrific tour he had in his short test career, and even though he went for runs he took pretty much the same amount of wickets as any other Australian bowler on that tour.
    Its just a shame when you just shun blokes likes this without giving them the slightest of leeway and it only creates an air of insecurity for other blokes, I'm pretty sure that Doherty already realises that if he doesn't do well at the Gabba then he might not play more than a single test for Australia.
    Now.. when you create such an atmosphere around the team, where as a player a sword is always hanging over you, then I think it becomes almost impossible to blood in new players especially spinners.
    Don't think PEWS is trying to claim that this is a particularly good decision at all, just saying that the argument that Doherty doesn't deserve to be picked because of his poor FC stats in isolation is a pretty bad one if you cast your net just a little wider.

    I agree though that this sends a terrible message to any developing spinner around - we'll stick with you for a while, but have two bad tests (and really, the India tour was only half the length of a normal tour) or make the captain annoyed and you'll be the first to get the axe. Especially because going for bucketloads of runs is an unfortunate and inevitable part of a spinner's development and it's important to send the message that the establishment is prepared to show faith and allow you to develop.
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  7. #772
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spark View Post
    Don't think PEWS is trying to claim that this is a particularly good decision at all, just saying that the argument that Doherty doesn't deserve to be picked because of his poor FC stats in isolation is a pretty bad one if you cast your net just a little wider.

    I agree though that this sends a terrible message to any developing spinner around - we'll stick with you for a while, but have two bad tests (and really, the India tour was only half the length of a normal tour) or make the captain annoyed and you'll be the first to get the axe. Especially because going for bucketloads of runs is an unfortunate and inevitable part of a spinner's development and it's important to send the message that the establishment is prepared to show faith and allow you to develop.
    There is no difference between the FC stats of any Australian spinner tbh, so no matter who gets picked the stats won't really help in comparing any of the spinners.
    Though you just gotta take into account how a spinner bowls in particular, and judge whether his style of spin bowling is likely to prove useful at the test level or not.
    Atm, selectors are just picking spinners for the sake of it and their potential or ability in the long run just isn't being considered and the selection of someone like Doherty is a classic example of this.

  8. #773
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend Top_Cat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spark View Post
    I agree though that this sends a terrible message to any developing spinner around - we'll stick with you for a while, but have two bad tests (and really, the India tour was only half the length of a normal tour) or make the captain annoyed and you'll be the first to get the axe. Especially because going for bucketloads of runs is an unfortunate and inevitable part of a spinner's development and it's important to send the message that the establishment is prepared to show faith and allow you to develop.
    It's a reflection of how spinners have been treated in Aussie grade cricket and up for many, many years, tbh. It's always been a tough gig to be successful spinner in OZ.

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    Tonight's pitch exposing the utter myth of the Gabba Greentop that people are expecting for Thursday. Kevin Mitchell always produces a belter for Tests, and Thursday's pitch (like tonight) will be no different. Go through the scorecards of the Tests up here, and compare them to the Shield games. There's not one scintilla of evidence, at least for the last decade or so, to support the myth that is the Test match Gabba Greentop.
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  10. #775
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend Top_Cat's Avatar
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    Hmmmm, dunno. The weather prediction for the coming week doesn't usually result in a belter of a pitch anywhere.

  11. #776
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    Win the toss and bat first then ?
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    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend Uppercut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoyBrumby View Post
    Putting the cart before the horse, IMHO. Bollinger would be the safe pick, but if the selectors go with Siddle and he takes a bagfull I don't think anyone (Dicko probably excepted) could claim it was a stupid decision.

    I know he's a bit of a cult (), but DtR isn't McGrath (or, given his bowling arm, Davidson) incarnate. &, I know stats can be used to prove anything, but to provide some justification for the selectors if they go that way Siddle's record at the Gabba, whilst based on a very small sample size, is better than Bollinger's who has taken his wickets there at 44 apiece.
    Bollinger is definitely better than Siddle and it's not close. Just as fast but gets considerably more movement and holds a much better line to left-handers (which is kinda crucial with two lefties opening and Midge still scared to take the new ball). Their respective recent records are entirely incomparable too. Siddle's more aggressive but I can't help but feel that doesn't get him the wickets it would have twenty years ago.

    Leaving out Bolly for fitness reasons would be fine. And Siddle's a properly good bowler so there's a good chance he'll take a hatful, especially in Brisbane. I'd have to agree with Dicko to some extent though, you have to be willing to criticise selections even if they turn out well or you'll give selectors with good players to choose from too easy a ride. You never get to see what the other guy would have done.
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    The Filth have comfortably the better bowling. But the Gash have the batting. Might be quite good to watch.

  13. #778
    Global Moderator Prince EWS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Cat View Post
    Hmmmm, dunno. The weather prediction for the coming week doesn't usually result in a belter of a pitch anywhere.
    Indeed. Lets not forget the Gabba pitch we saw a couple of seasons back when New Zealand toured.
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  14. #779
    Global Moderator Prince EWS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uppercut View Post
    I'd have to agree with Dicko to some extent though, you have to be willing to criticise selections even if they turn out well or you'll give selectors with good players to choose from too easy a ride. You never get to see what the other guy would have done.
    Yeah, he does take it to absolute extremes sometimes, but I think people only find it infuriating because it makes it absolutely impossible for him to be proven wrong.

    Siddle's a good bowler so if he's picked he could well perform well, but Bollinger's an even better bowler so it's more likely he'd perform well. Siddle getting picked and performing well wouldn't change the fact that Bollinger was the more likely of the two to do so originally - all it'd prove was that Siddle wasn't ****. If it's for fitness reasons it's fine, otherwise Bollinger should (and IMO will) play. I'd actually be more inclined to leave Hilfenhaus or Doherty out than Bollinger, personally.

  15. #780
    Hall of Fame Member Howe_zat's Avatar
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    There's still no reason to confirm that Doherty will play. Yes that's the likely plan but I could easily see them picking four seamers plus North/Smith. You'd say Siddle would be more likely to take wickets than Doherty regardless of the make-up of the attack.
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