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Thread: *Official* Road to the 2010/11 Ashes

  1. #151
    Hall of Fame Member NUFAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    Probably not (has Warner still not played First-Class cricket? Hadn't last I looked), but Warner is an opener, Watson is not.

    If it isn't, it's brainless selection. Jaques and Hughes are class players, one is a natural opener, the other (AFAIK) was manufactured into an opener 5-6 years ago with great success.
    No he's not. Warner has batted all over the shop mostly in the middle order in the Futures League. He's batted in the middle order in his first class career to date too. He's seen as a middle order batsman more so than an opener at this stage.

    If Jaques is a manufactured opener and Watson is a manufactured opener and Watson is in the Australian team and is performing well, why would it be brainless to select Watson as an opener for his state. Especially when you could have the likes of Katich, Clarke, Khawaja, Haddin and Smith batting from 3 to 7.
    Last edited by NUFAN; 26-02-2010 at 07:04 AM.

  2. #152
    Cricketer Of The Year four_or_six's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    Would depend. If it was a load of short crap that both Strauss and Cook thrive on, I'd bank on both to have a decent shot at smashing it, like Watson did when the England bowlers bowled to his strength.

    England may or may not be able to exploit the fact that neither of those who are likely to open for Australia in The Ashes (or at worst the first part of it) are proper openers. But if they can't do that, they're likely to be in BIG trouble against the middle-order, all of whom (yes, North included) are class players.
    How can Katich not be classed as a proper opener? I thought we'd established that he'd averaged 50 over 25 tests, including away in England, South Africa and India. There's no way whether he's played more at 3 domestically is remotely relevant any more.

  3. #153
    International Coach GotSpin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    Against decent batting, no bowler will ever take very many wickets purely by bowling accurately.

    Of course, accuracy is an incredibly important component in good-quality bowling, but in itself it is not a weapon.
    Accuracy is a weapon though and would be a highly contributing factor to taking wickets. Obviously, there will always be mitigating circumstances but I think it's illogical to suggest that accuracy is not a weapon for quality bowlers. Though I can't be bothered going down memory lane looking for specific examples, there have been many times when bowlers have been forced to grind away through sheer accuracy in the search of wickets.

  4. #154
    State Vice-Captain DaRick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    Probably not (has Warner still not played First-Class cricket? Hadn't last I looked), but Warner is an opener, Watson is not.
    He has. Not very much, though.

    Nor should he be really mentioned in this thread.


  5. #155
    International Coach GotSpin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaRick View Post
    He has. Not very much, though.

    Nor should he be really mentioned in this thread.
    Warner is too stupid to open the batting in first class

  6. #156
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by four_or_six View Post
    How can Katich not be classed as a proper opener? I thought we'd established that he'd averaged 50 over 25 tests, including away in England, South Africa and India. There's no way whether he's played more at 3 domestically is remotely relevant any more.
    Katich is beginning to look like he could make a decent short-term Test opener, which was more than I thought was likely when he was first (and second) shoved into the role. Regardless of this, he was 33 before he had any lengthy stint as an opening batsman in serious cricket. That makes him a manufactured opener - however good, he is a manufactured opener and nothing else.
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  7. #157
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NUFAN View Post
    No he's not. Warner has batted all over the shop mostly in the middle order in the Futures League. He's batted in the middle order in his first class career to date too. He's seen as a middle order batsman more so than an opener at this stage.
    If so, then fair enough - I don't think he's someone who's likely to have success as a First-Class opener. Jaques and Hughes, however, most certainly are - in fact, have. To prefer either\both of Watson and Katich to them just because they currently open for Australia would be madness.
    If Jaques is a manufactured opener and Watson is a manufactured opener and Watson is in the Australian team and is performing well, why would it be brainless to select Watson as an opener for his state. Especially when you could have the likes of Katich, Clarke, Khawaja, Haddin and Smith batting from 3 to 7.
    Because Jaques has established himself as worthy of playing for NSW. Watson has not yet done so - however much he established himself as worthy of playing for Qld.

    Good a prospect as these Khawaja and Smith lads seems to be, both should not be playing if all of Jaques, Hughes, Katich, Clarke, Watson and (other) are available. Only one.

  8. #158
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Got_Spin View Post
    Accuracy is a weapon though and would be a highly contributing factor to taking wickets. Obviously, there will always be mitigating circumstances but I think it's illogical to suggest that accuracy is not a weapon for quality bowlers.
    I think it's illogical to suggest it is. Accuracy is a factor which enhances the effectiveness of weapons such as swing, seam, cut, turn, uneven bounce (not that that's a weapon the bowler can control - it depends on the deck) and the like - the more deliveries you get in the right area and the more you make a batsman play the more regularly you're going to cash-in on any movement you get, and the straighter you bowl the more you're going to make a play-and-miss result in the stumps being hit.

    Pace (reducing reaction time the quicker it goes) and height (extra bounce leading to a) uncertainty of batsman and b) extra carry) are the same.
    Though I can't be bothered going down memory lane looking for specific examples, there have been many times when bowlers have been forced to grind away through sheer accuracy in the search of wickets.
    Possibly they've realised they have almost no chance of actually taking wickets (if the deck is a runway and the ball is a poor-quality one that won't swing) and have resolved merely to try to concede as few runs as they can and hope for mistakes. But no bowler will ever just put the ball in the right place again and again and expect to get wickets. Top-class batsmen will just block that out easily.
    Last edited by Richard; 26-02-2010 at 12:49 PM.

  9. #159
    Hall of Fame Member NUFAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    If so, then fair enough - I don't think he's someone who's likely to have success as a First-Class opener. Jaques and Hughes, however, most certainly are - in fact, have. To prefer either\both of Watson and Katich to them just because they currently open for Australia would be madness.

    Because Jaques has established himself as worthy of playing for NSW. Watson has not yet done so - however much he established himself as worthy of playing for Qld.

    Good a prospect as these Khawaja and Smith lads seems to be, both should not be playing if all of Jaques, Hughes, Katich, Clarke, Watson and (other) are available. Only one.
    I disagree, Jaques has been rather disappointing since his injury which cost him the opening spot for Australia.

    If Jaques wants to play for a full strength NSW side, he would need to adapt in the middle order, most likely at 4.

    1 Watson 2 Hughes 3 Katich 4 Jaques/Khawaja 5 Clarke 6 Haddin 7 Smith..

  10. #160
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    What would be the sense in manufacturing a middle-order batsman into an opener in order to manufacture a manufactured opener back into a middle-order batsman?

    Why not just leave Jaques, who has been a successful manufactured opener for a good few years now, as he is?

  11. #161
    Hall of Fame Member NUFAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    What would be the sense in manufacturing a middle-order batsman into an opener in order to manufacture a manufactured opener back into a middle-order batsman?

    Why not just leave Jaques, who has been a successful manufactured opener for a good few years now, as he is?
    Well there are only 2 opening spots not 4. Katich is good enough that he will not mind in the slightest moving down to number 3. Shane Watson is a star opener now, so I don't really see the point in moving him either considering he opens for Australia in all 3 formats.

    As Hughes is ahead of Jaques especially on recent form, if NSW had to pick the best team they should have Watson and Hughes open.

    Anyways NSW isn't quite Australia yet so it doesn't really matter.

    My original main point was that you said Watson doesn't open for his state. He's not had an opportunity to play for his state yet as he's basically too good for State Cricket so you can't say for sure that he wouldn't open, considering he does for his country.
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  12. #162
    Cricketer Of The Year zaremba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    What would be the sense in manufacturing a middle-order batsman into an opener in order to manufacture a manufactured opener back into a middle-order batsman?

    Why not just leave Jaques, who has been a successful manufactured opener for a good few years now, as he is?
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  13. #163
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NUFAN View Post
    Well there are only 2 opening spots not 4. Katich is good enough that he will not mind in the slightest moving down to number 3. Shane Watson is a star opener now, so I don't really see the point in moving him either considering he opens for Australia in all 3 formats.

    As Hughes is ahead of Jaques especially on recent form, if NSW had to pick the best team they should have Watson and Hughes open.

    Anyways NSW isn't quite Australia yet so it doesn't really matter.

    My original main point was that you said Watson doesn't open for his state. He's not had an opportunity to play for his state yet as he's basically too good for State Cricket so you can't say for sure that he wouldn't open, considering he does for his country.
    So essentially your argument is "he should open for NSW because he opens for Australia"?

    I'd argue "he's never opened for NSW, NSW have a couple of established opening batsmen, so Watson should bat four".

  14. #164
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zaremba View Post
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  15. #165
    Hall of Fame Member NUFAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    So essentially your argument is "he should open for NSW because he opens for Australia"?

    I'd argue "he's never opened for NSW, NSW have a couple of established opening batsmen, so Watson should bat four".
    I'm saying Watson should open for NSW because he is one of the best openers, highlighted recently in the Test arena, (you know that place where Jaques wishes he was playing) while Jaques is definitely not showing signs that he's one of the two best openers. Jaques has struggled big time this year, averaging a shade under 40.

    Now the fact that Watson and Katich are more versatile cricketers compared with Phil Jaques might mean NSW might just keep the same openers, but it's a pretty strange move making both the Australian openers bat out of position - remember I'm talking about a full strength team where obviously Clarke is in your top 6 and Haddin could easy bat at 6 too.

    Next year there is a 2 or 3 week period before the first Ashes Test that I think the Australian Test players will be available to play state cricket, do you think it's wise to make the Australian openers prepare for Test Cricket batting in a different position?

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