Athers I stand and applaud you

[aussie]

Don't buy it.

Its the same thing with Frank Tyson & Shane Bond. Players whose careers where rocked by injuries who clearly going to become greats.

 

[tooextracool]

Its the same thing with Frank Tyson & Shane Bond. Players whose careers where rocked by injuries who clearly going to become greats.

The difference being that those 2 averaged 18 and 22 respectively while Flintoff averages 32. If those 2 had played 70 odd tests, I doubt too many people would be debating whether they should be great or not.

 

[aussie]

Haaaa, damn teco i 100% disagree here.

He didn't become a great because he just didn't put in the f'ing effort. Sorry but his attitude to the game was unprofessional. He played with all his heart on the pitch but he never ever worked truly hard enough on his game in the nets and outside of the actual match and thats the exact point.

Well isn't that clearly because he spent most of his time in rehabilitation?. Thankfully for ENG at least, his bowling would come right away after a injury lay off.

Yes he was injured, but during that downtime, did he ever think about how he could improve his bowling? Did he work out ways to bowl a slower ball? Did he work on getting reverse or conventional swing (we know at times he could do both, but he never got it going consistently for a reason)?.

I'd say he probably didn't need the slower ball in ODIs. His yorker was the most lethal in the game matched by a few this decade & in a ENG ODI bowling attack he combined the role of strike & stock bowler brilliantly given that he hardly any WC back-up.

I've stated plenty of times that I do believe his batting was hurt immensely because of injuries, lets face it the only way to score runs is to practice, practice and practice and he was constantly injured and unable to get enough batting time. As a bowler though, he just didn't care enough.

He most of his injjury time in rehabilitation, the FC matches he was play where basically the selectors seeing if he was ready for test matches. There was not any chance for serious practise TBH.

 

[aussie]

The difference being that those 2 averaged 18 and 22 respectively while Flintoff averages 32. If those 2 had played 70 odd tests, I doubt too many people would be debating whether they should be great or not.

Flintoff at his peak as Bowler from Bridgetown 2004 to Headingley 09 averaged 28. In this era of flat pitches, plus the runs he scored thats top-class for an all-rounder.

 

[tooextracool]

Flintoff at his peak as Bowler from Bridgetown 2004 to Headingley 09 averaged 28. In this era of flat pitches, plus the runs he scored thats top-class for an all-rounder.

Its good but its not extraordinary. That's the point. You have to manipulate the statistics to get a period when he was good, and even then it isn't even great. And that's his strong suit. His batting record in the same period is ordinary.

 

[aussie]

The IPL kinda showed up what I am talking about regarding Flintoff tbh. Played something like 150 ODIs, still hasnt developed a slower ball, doesnt bowl any cutters and has no variety to his bowling with the exception of his stock ball back of a length. When the pitches had no bite in them, he got tonked around all over the park.

Haa, De Villiers got on top of him in one innings, that can happen to anybody in a slog-fest like T20s.

Again Flintoff never needed the slower ball in ODIs. He was brilliant enough without it. Now that he will be playing only ODIs & T20, presuming his injury woes disappear, he will have more time to PROBABLY develop the slower ball. But if Umar Gul didn't need it, i honestly dont think Flintoff does either.

He is a classic example regarding why England are backward in all forms of the game. Someone mentioned that a lot of England players dont play 50 odd test matches or whatever they have under their belt, they play the same test 50 times. They are right about it. This is where I give props to Stuart Broad, because almost every other game he goes out there and tries something different and even if he gets tonked, you know that he's learning from it.

Flintoff isn't in this group clealry, you like Athers are being unnecessarily harsh on Flintoff. Injuries prevented him from being a great - simple.

 

[tooextracool]

Well isn't that clearly because he spent most of his time in rehabilitation?. Thankfully for ENG at least, his bowling would come right away after a injury lay off.

Yes and his bowling record is still good but nothing special. 1 5Fer in 4 years kinda defines what I am talking about. You dont win games taking 3/70 odd.

I'd say he probably didn't need the slower ball in ODIs. His yorker was the most lethal in the game matched by a few this decade & in a ENG ODI bowling attack he combined the role of strike & stock bowler brilliantly given that he hardly any WC back-up..

How on earth can you say that he didn't need a slower ball? If it makes you a better bowler you add it simple as that. Flintoff was by no means the complete ODI bowler. He has a good ODI record but its not downright brilliant. This is exactly the same sort of 'feel good' attitude which has prevented Flintoff from becoming great IMO. The idea that 'I am a good bowler and don't need to change anything or try to improve' that is.

 

[tooextracool]

Haa, De Villiers got on top of him in one innings, that can happen to anybody in a slog-fest like T20s.

Got smacked around by Nayar as well in the opening game.

Flintoff isn't in this group clealry, you like Athers are being unnecessarily harsh on Flintoff. Injuries prevented him from being a great - simple.

So pray tell me what changes has Flintoff made in his bowling since 2004 to suggest that he's improved as a bowler? Or is it too much to ask for to expect someone to make improvements and add variety to his bowling during his career

 

[aussie]

Its good but its not extraordinary. That's the point. You have to manipulate the statistics to get a period when he was good, and even then it isn't even great. And that's his strong suit. His batting record in the same period is ordinary.

Yes and his bowling record is still good but nothing special. 1 5Fer in 4 years kinda defines what I am talking about. You dont win games taking 3/70 odd.

So pray tell me what changes has Flintoff made in his bowling since 2004 to suggest that he's improved as a bowler? Or is it too much to ask for to expect someone to make improvements and add variety to his bowling during his career..

He peaked as bowler in the 2005 Ashes. After then he was ravaeged with injuries all the time & he never got the chance to fully take his bowling to the next level. But thankfully for ENG his bowling would immediately return to a WC standard when he played i.e the spell to Kallis @ Edgbaston, his 5 wicket in this series, the spell vs IND @ Mumbai. That constant stop-start affected him clearly.

Same thing in ODIs, see the hat-trick vs WI the other day.

Improvements couldn't have been practised on because its clear he spent most of his time in rehabilitation & being nursed back to full fitness. The probably nets & FC matches basically where played at lowe intensity, just to prove he was match-fit to the selectors. There was no time to really practise new tricks.

How on earth can you say that he didn't need a slower ball? If it makes you a better bowler you add it simple as that. Flintoff was by no means the complete ODI bowler. He has a good ODI record but its not downright brilliant. This is exactly the same sort of 'feel good' attitude which has prevented Flintoff from becoming great IMO. The idea that 'I am a good bowler and don't need to change anything or try to improve' that is.

No doubt having a slowe ball would improve his bowling. But as i said in Umar Gul doesn't need it in T20s nor did Garner in ODIs, Flintoff is still very hard to score off in ODIs. The MAIN reason why Freddie doesn't have superb SR is because - given that he is generally the only WC ODI bowler ENG have - he has been forced to performing both the defensive & attacking role. No captain has ever been able to use him in short sharp burst like a Lee/Bond or Akhtar.

 

[GIMH]

He's the ***iest man ever to play cricket and I want his babies

 

[four_or_six]

He's the ***iest man ever to play cricket and I want his babies

Athers? AWTA.

 

[GIMH]

Was talking about oitoitoi actually

 

[vic_orthdox]

Just for the record, Anderson's spell @ Lords > Fred's. Now, if only someone in the meedja would remember that...

 

[Uppercut]

Just for the record, Anderson's spell @ Lords > Fred's. Now, if only someone in the meedja would remember that...

Truth be told, Flintoff's been very poor this series. But he's popular, and some people just see what they want to see.

 

[tooextracool]

Just for the record, Anderson's spell @ Lords > Fred's. Now, if only someone in the meedja would remember that...

I would disagree. Anderson's spell at Edgbaston was probably > both those spells, but Anderson's spell at Lords involved a lot of dodgy batting.

 

[grecian]

Truth be told, Flintoff's been very poor this series. But he's popular, and some people just see what they want to see.

Yep mostly, but the guys not been fit, and he was good at Lords, if not as good as was made out.

Kind of glad he's retired, don't think we'd see him bowling that well again, and certainly nowhere near 2001-05 standard.

 

[Jamee999]

Flintoff had series, years when he was great - but he never was able to sustain it like the immortals of cricket did.

 

[oitoitoi]

Yep mostly, but the guys not been fit, and he was good at Lords, if not as good as was made out.

Kind of glad he's retired, don't think we'd see him bowling that well again, and certainly nowhere near 2001-05 standard.

Personally thought 2004 was his best year, his batting against SA was top notch. He'll probably come back from surgery, bowl well in some one day stuff and we'll have the perennial let's get Trescothick and Flintoff back in the side newspaper articles. I think he could probably continue as he is after surgery, but it would be a poor way for him to finish his career.

 

[Daryl Harper]

Anyone else pick up on Atherton's interview with Flintoff after the game? In which to his face Ath described him as a "great" allrounder.