*Official* Fourth Test at Headingley

[Athlai]

Wonder where Swann ranks in comparsion to other bowlers in the world right now.

 

[PhoenixFire]

Would agree that England are seriously in trouble if we pick Sidebottom and it doesn't swing. Anderson is pretty crap when it doesn't swing and Sidebottom has no real pace to fall back on. Think we are taking a bit of a risk.

 

[GIMH]

Hence, if no Flintoff, stack the batting

 

[social]

Reckon that's a bit harsh. Not saying he's a world beater or anything, but he's certainly better than very average.

Against Oz, he is

These guys are brought up on traditional finger-spin and murder it, day in and day out

I nearly choked when some were suggesting that he could be Eng's trump card

Honestly, MSP would be a bigger threat as we dont traditionally play left-handers nearly as well

Off-spin - pffftt

 

[pup11]

Reckon that's a bit harsh. Not saying he's a world beater or anything, but he's certainly better than very average.

Yeah, he is a decent spinner, and certainly not very average, probably the Ashes pressure has got to him, but he is quite comfortably the best spinner in England atm, and deserves his place in the side.

 

[GIMH]

Maybe you have a point about the rest (not convinced, but) but there is no way Panesar would have gone better than Swann so far

 

[Richard]

Most observers have noted that he hasn't been as effective for Yorkshire since, though.

Yeah and most observers have noted wrongly. He's bowled exactly as he always did for Yorkshire in the last couple of seasons, plainly and simply.

Said observers are in my book merely looking for something to justify what is frankly an idiotic selectorial decision. Unless, of course, whatever Hoggard did was so bad that his place in the side was completely and totally untenable, which does happen from time to time (see Warren, Russell) but would seem extremely out-of-character from what we've always known of Hoggard.

 

[Athlai]

Spinners since 08 in Tests:

Harbhajan 79 @ 29.46
Vettori 61 @ 29.13
Shakib 48 @ 25.18
Murali 47 @ 28.48
Panesar 45 @ 37.26
Harris 42 @ 38.64
Swann 40 @ 30.92
Mendis 39 @ 25.66
Jeets 23 @ 34.04
Mishra 20 @ 29.65

This would suggest, Harby Vettori Shakib Murali Mendis Mishra are all probably better than Swann. Sounds about right too. Chawla probably is too IMO.

 

[Richard]

30+, selectors looking to the future, reasonable not great bowler and therefore didnt demand selection, unimpressive in fc matches since, etc etc etc

Take your pick

None of which have any logic behind them. Hoggard-type bowlers tend to be the same pretty much at 32 as 28; looking 5 years into the future when there's always the next Test to win in a few months' time is plain stupid; being reasonable-but-not-great would be fine if there were several outstanding options banging the door down but when Amjad Khan and Darren Pattinson instead find their way in, and Stuart Broad is a regular, you see that that plainly doesn't apply; and he's been impressive enough in what First-Class cricket he's played since being dropped.

 

[GIMH]

I haven't seen any of his FC games since he was dropped - have you Richard? don't understand how you could claim people have observed wrongly otherwise...

 

[PhoenixFire]

Spinners since 08 in Tests:

Harbhajan 79 @ 29.46
Vettori 61 @ 29.13
Shakib 48 @ 25.18
Murali 47 @ 28.48
Panesar 45 @ 37.26
Harris 42 @ 38.64
Swann 40 @ 30.92
Mendis 39 @ 25.66
Jeets 23 @ 34.04
Mishra 20 @ 29.65

This would suggest, Harby Vettori Shakib Murali Mendis Mishra are all probably better than Swann. Sounds about right too. Chawla probably is too IMO.

Yeah, would agree with Harby, Vettori, Murali, Mendis certainly being better. Haven't seen much of the others so I don't feel like I can comment. Harris maybe?

 

[pup11]

Against Oz, he is

These guys are brought up on traditional finger-spin and murder it, day in and day out

I nearly choked when some were suggesting that he could be Eng's trump card

Honestly, MSP would be a bigger threat as we dont traditionally play left-handers nearly as well

Off-spin - pffftt

Johan Botha, Harbhajan Singh, Virender Sehwag would beg to differ...

 

[Athlai]

Na Harris kind of falls in the Jeets-Swann range. Nothing exceptional just good workers.

Shakib is easily better and Mishra if not now will definitely be soon.

 

[Richard]

Would agree that England are seriously in trouble if we pick Sidebottom and it doesn't swing. Anderson is pretty crap when it doesn't swing and Sidebottom has no real pace to fall back on. Think we are taking a bit of a risk.

Basically, there are four possibilities:
England pick Anderson and Sidebottom, ball swings, England march to victory in three days;
England pick Anderson and Sidebottom, ball doesn't swing, Australia get through the weak England lower-order and pile-up mountains of runs;
England pick seven batsmen aiming for the draw, ball swings so the draw goes OOTQ, Australia have the stronger attack and thus claim the result;
England pick seven batsmen aiming for the draw, ball doesn't swing, draw is nailed-on certain.

Though given the weather of the previous month there's definately also a fifth possibility, which is that enough play is lost to rain to make another draw inevitable.

 

[PhoenixFire]

Yeah rained for most of today here, nothing monumental, just steady.

 

[Richard]

I haven't seen any of his FC games since he was dropped - have you Richard? don't understand how you could claim people have observed wrongly otherwise...

I've seen his figures, and they're exactly as always. If he's bowled massively worse (which he'd have to have done to be a lesser option than Amjad Khan or Darren Pattinson) then this WOULD be reflected in his figures. No two ways about.

Sorry, Hoggard's exclusion makes zero sense. No plausible, reasonable case can be constructed in favour of it. Unless he's slept with 5 or 6 of the rest of the team's wives.

 

[social]

Spinners since 08 in Tests:

Harbhajan 79 @ 29.46
Vettori 61 @ 29.13
Shakib 48 @ 25.18
Murali 47 @ 28.48
Panesar 45 @ 37.26
Harris 42 @ 38.64
Swann 40 @ 30.92
Mendis 39 @ 25.66
Jeets 23 @ 34.04
Mishra 20 @ 29.65

This would suggest, Harby Vettori Shakib Murali Mendis Mishra are all probably better than Swann. Sounds about right too. Chawla probably is too IMO.

Simple answer - WI

Have a look at Hauritz's fc record

Hauritz has, in both this series and against SA, shown himself to be smarter, more accurate, has more variation and spins it more than Swann

Why then does he average 40+ in fc cricket in Oz?

1. Lack of experience

2. The wickets

3. And by far the most important, Oz batsmen LOVE traditional off spinners (I.e. anyone that doesnt have a doosra and they dont have to play in the subcontinent where conditions are completely different)

 

[Athlai]

Swann doesn't get to bowl against England

 

[Richard]

Hauritz has, in both this series and against SA, shown himself to be smarter, more accurate, has more variation and spins it more than Swann

Hauritz spins it more than Swann and has better variation. Now I've heard it all.

Hauritz is more accurate and fortunately for him that's about all that's required against England's batsmen. If Swann had been bowling at England's batsmen and Hauritz at Australia's Hauritz would probably average 100 or so and Swann 20-25.

 

[social]

Johan Botha, Harbhajan Singh, Virender Sehwag would beg to differ...

Botha in ODIs with an illegal doosra

Harby in India - check out his record in Oz

Sehwag in India