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*Official* Fourth Test at Headingley

grecian

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
One would think that if Flintoff misses out, that Harmison will play given that they think of him as a 'like-for-like' replacement with Broad also left out. Sidebottom IMO, is more likely to replace Broad if Flintoff actually plays and if the conditions prove to be conducive to swing and seam movement.
Yes your probably right, just putting what I'd do, and I wouldn't have Harmi anywhere near the side with his recent England performances. I feel Ryan being a left-armer gives you more of a variation anyway. He's just better then Broad and Harmison too, IMHO, which is why I'd pick him.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
Ha & Mahmood is a swing bowler right?. Thats was a flat pitch hands down.



So. That doesn't mean it was a seamers deck, thats was just Hoggard utilizing the conditions in that innings.




Leeds was flat last year no question. Stop stats picking, Morkel aint no swing bowler come on now. England's 1st innings collapse was down to poor selection & batting.
This has to be one of the most confounding posts I have seen. First, you are suggesting that the bowlers who took wickets on mentioned decks are not swing bowlers (Morkel, Mahmood) so there was no swing and then you go on to suggest that Hoggard took wickets by utilizing the conditions which doesn't mean that it was a seamer's deck:huh:
 

tooextracool

International Coach
Yes your probably right, just putting what I'd do, and I wouldn't have Harmi anywhere near the side with his recent England performances. I feel Ryan being a left-armer gives you more of a variation anyway. He's just better then Broad and Harmison too, IMHO, which is why I'd pick him.
I would be a little worried with Sidebottom, Anderson and Onions in the same side because they are all similar types of bowlers and it would really be putting all of your eggs in one basket and hope that things work out okay. Furthermore, Sidebottom and Anderson have rarely been particularly effective at exploiting seam movement because they kiss the surface rather than hit it. Personally, if Flintoff doesn't play, I would agree with the think tank that Harmison should play because he adds the variety that England need to the attack.
 

grecian

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I would be a little worried with Sidebottom, Anderson and Onions in the same side because they are all similar types of bowlers and it would really be putting all of your eggs in one basket and hope that things work out okay. Furthermore, Sidebottom and Anderson have rarely been particularly effective at exploiting seam movement because they kiss the surface rather than hit it. Personally, if Flintoff doesn't play, I would agree with the think tank that Harmison should play because he adds the variety that England need to the attack.

Well, the weather looks to be overcast, I'd take the risk. We're not going to bowl them out anyway if the ball doesn't swing, as proved at Glamorgan. Harmison will be as disappointing as he almost always is lately, when it's not OT. At least if it does swing we'll competently exploit it.

Mind you, if Freddie's not as bad as I think, it'll be a moot point anyway, I really hope if that's the case they replace Broad with Sidebottom, but I think the selectors will bottle it and pick Broad for his extra batting.

Fully expect the same XI.
 

PhoenixFire

International Coach
Forecast looks to be pretty overcast, so I reckon it's a risk worth taking. If it comes off, we could stuff them.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
Ha, well its off my head ATM. Wasn't a sure statement.

In 2001, it swung early when Pigeon took 7, but defiantely got flat at least to the end of the test when Butcher scored 173.
Nope seamed around plenty when Butcher was at the crease. Which is why there were plenty of runs that were scored behind the wicket, particularly over the slips (remember if you are going to slash, slash hard) and its a reason why Butch's knock is rated so highly.

Cant remember anything from 02
Flat, with the exception of early in the game. Took turn as the game went out.


NZ 04 hmm, maybe a little. But not significant.
Seamed around all game, with both sides bowling poorly and too short throughout. The amount of movement off the pitch increased steadily as the game wore off, with Richardson getting a peach of a delivery to get dismissed in the 2nd inning off Hoggard.

Seamed around plenty when Steyn and Morkel bowled even if not so much thereafter. Anyhow, there is enough evidence over the years to disprove your theory that the wickets haven't seamed at all this decade.

England have frequently bowled poorly at Headingley, and far too often they have bowled too short when they should have been pitching it up. As a result, Im fearful about the next test because I think if there is one pitch they were likely to struggle on this series it would be at Headingley. Furthermore, given the Australian bowlers affinity towards helpful pitches, this is their best chance to get even in the series.
 
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GIMH

Norwood's on Fire
Ha & Mahmood is a swing bowler right?. Thats was a flat pitch hands down.



So. That doesn't mean it was a seamers deck, thats was just Hoggard utilizing the conditions in that innings.




Leeds was flat last year no question. Stop stats picking, Morkel aint no swing bowler come on now. England's 1st innings collapse was down to poor selection & batting.
It can swing around when the pitch is flat, if the air and ground are conducive to it.

And as for the bolded bit, how you can blame it on selection is beyond me, the only error as far as batting went was to put Ambrose at 6 and Flintoff at 7. But other than that, we collapsed because it was overcast and they used the conditions.
 

howardj

International Coach
My team

Watson
Katich
Ponting
Clarke
Hussey
North
Haddin/Manou
Johnson
Clark
Siddle
Hilfenhaus

I've been so proud of Horrie this series, however I think given the ground and state of the series, he should sit this one out.
 

Burgey

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Forecast looks to be pretty overcast, so I reckon it's a risk worth taking. If it comes off, we could stuff them.
Don't think either side has batted well when it's swung tbh. When Australia finally got the ball to talk a bit at Edgbaston, they had England 5 for 150 odd.

If it's consistently cloudy, can see this being something of a low scoring thriller tbh. Really looking forward to it.
 

Pizzorno

State Vice-Captain
England will only drop Flintoff if he himself says he's unfit, and that's just not going to happen. It's the way Flintoff is. Headingley isn't our Fred's best ground either; remember when he scored something like 5 ot 6 consecutive ducks there in Test matches?

But anyway i'd really like us to line-up like this;

Cook
Strauss
Bopara
Trott
Collingwood
Bell
Prior
Swann
Anderson
Sidebottom
Onions

Won't happen though. Wouldn't surprise me if we just went into Headingley unchanged.
 

Burgey

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Must admit I want Fred rested, his bowling wasn't a patch on Lords, can only see it deteriorate more for this match. Trott and Sidebottom in for Broad and Freddie.

They'll never do it though.......
Mind you, his pace wasn't all that high (by his own standards) in Cardiff, then he came to Lord's a few days later and bowled like Ian Bishop pre-back injury.

Did seem to be hurting more in Brum though.
 
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PhoenixFire

International Coach
Don't think either side has batted well when it's swung tbh. When Australia finally got the ball to talk a bit at Edgbaston, they had England 5 for 150 odd.

If it's consistently cloudy, can see this being something of a low scoring thriller tbh. Really looking forward to it.
You only really have Hilfenhaus that swings it though. Not sure about whether Johnson swings it, I'm rather confused as I thought he brought it into the right hander, but I've seen him swing it about 3 times all series.

I just reckon that England would be better placed to exploit the swinging conditions, given we have someone in Anderson who can be pretty much unplayable on his day and someone else in Sidebottom who can be pretty damn good as well when it goes.
 

Burgey

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You only really have Hilfenhaus that swings it though. Not sure about whether Johnson swings it, I'm rather confused as I thought he brought it into the right hander, but I've seen him swing it about 3 times all series.

I just reckon that England would be better placed to exploit the swinging conditions, given we have someone in Anderson who can be pretty much unplayable on his day and someone else in Sidebottom who can be pretty damn good as well when it goes.
Yeah, don't disagree with that. More that if it moves around both sides' batting is potentially frail.

Also interesting that in recent times, the Aussie attack has produced when there's something in the deck. As far back as India and at home last summer they struggeld to contain, let alone penetrate, on flat decks. Personally wouldn't mind, as HJ suggested, Ronnie in for Horrie and Clark for Sid. Can never say with certainty of course, but that attack at least seems more disciplined than the one which has been doing the rounds of late.
 

PhoenixFire

International Coach
England are as bad as anyone when there is a flat pitch though. Anderson is pretty much useless and generally gets hammered and so would our 4th seamer whoever it might be.
 

GIMH

Norwood's on Fire
England will only drop Flintoff if he himself says he's unfit, and that's just not going to happen. It's the way Flintoff is. Headingley isn't our Fred's best ground either; remember when he scored something like 5 ot 6 consecutive ducks there in Test matches?

But anyway i'd really like us to line-up like this;

Cook
Strauss
Bopara
Trott
Collingwood
Bell
Prior
Swann
Anderson
Sidebottom
Onions

Won't happen though. Wouldn't surprise me if we just went into Headingley unchanged.
Never has someone gone from such an awesome avatar to such a **** one
 

Pizzorno

State Vice-Captain
England are as bad as anyone when there is a flat pitch though. Anderson is pretty much useless and generally gets hammered and so would our 4th seamer whoever it might be.
Add to that the fact that our batsmen more often than not seem reluctant to truly cash in on a flat pitch.
 

PhoenixFire

International Coach
Add to that the fact that our batsmen more often than not seem reluctant to truly cash in on a flat pitch.
Yeah, you know that most of the Aussie batsmen aren't going to just give their wicket away on a flat deck, that you are really going to have to get them out.

For England, I only really feel like Strauss doesn't give his wicket away most of the time, unlike the rest in which I am waiting for them to get bored and play a moronic shot.
 

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