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Flintoff is Hercules.. a God

GIMH

Norwood's on Fire
Not sure about Mcgrath being better, I've always viewed him as almost the same bowler as Ambrose, just a bit slower.

Is Flintoff's new 'bigger than jesus' celebration getting on anyone elses nerves? He did it at Lords after getting out tailenders, I mean come on....getting out Ponting would perhaps justify such a thing, but a bowler....the man certainly knows how to use the English crowds. Saw some highlights today, really got my goat.
Only just started watching cricket or something? He's been doing it for years. And the one at Lord's wasn't about getting out a tailender, it was for getting his 5fer.

It only winds you up so much because of your inexplicable dislike for the cricket team of the country that you live in, getting pretty zzzzzzz tbh :sleep1:
 

Burgey

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Tendulkar's just too good though. He does so little wrong that he's an icon to everyone and everyone, and thus you can barely even get a glimpse of him without everyone around going completely insane.
Has occasional hearing issues, tbf :ph34r:
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
Flintoff's a rare sportsman indeed.

You have the Paul Gascoigne types, mercurial talents who have all the ability but piss it away.

There's the Paul Collingwoods, the honest performers who seem to make the most of their natural ability and hence become popular with fans- but you sometimes suspect they don't work as hard off the field as they do on it.

There's the Geoffrey Boycotts, who have all the talent and all the application but never manage to capture the imagination of the fans because they lack any kind of magic in their game.

There are Shahid Afridis, capable of the most magnificent moments but never solid nor consistent enough to contribute regularly to the success of their team.

There are Kevin Pietersens, exciting and very, very good, but with an attitude that makes him hard to identify with and sometimes unpopular.

Then you have someone like Flintoff, tremendously talented but still willing to put in the hard yards, capable of playing the most thrilling cricket at times but still brilliantly consistent and solid, one of the best in the world at what he does yet still comes across as a down-to-earth, good bloke. How many sportsmen could you say that about? He's exactly who you want playing for your team. Of course the English ****ing love him.
I am not sure if that is completely true though... There have been times in his interviews and just the way he is on the field when I felt he was one of those "self important" types who will be nice as long as everything else goes the way they want to but then turn into something else when things aren't going their way...
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
What do you mean? The poor guy is so popular and in the media flashlights for the last two decades that the only time he gets off on his own is in the bathroom and bedroom. And hardly anything scandalous happens there.

Regards Tendulkar, its WYSIWYG. He hardly has the space to carry on a different persona.
This post sounds familiar... :)
 

Uppercut

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I am not sure if that is completely true though... There have been times in his interviews and just the way he is on the field when I felt he was one of those "self important" types who will be nice as long as everything else goes the way they want to but then turn into something else when things aren't going their way...
That might matter to fans in India, but in England they very much want their players to get pissed off when they're losing. There's nothing worse than seeing your team bent over royally and the players stand around smiling like they don't give a crap. If Flintoff's got a bit of aggro when things aren't going his way, that's just another reason for his fans to love him.
 

oitoitoi

State Vice-Captain
It's quite funny how much he gets under your skin. I wonder if you'd feel the same way if he were an Indian player. I very much doubt it.

Anyhow he did that particular celebration when he got his 5th wicket even though it was a tailender, a wicket which (at long last) got his name on the bowling honours board along with the batting honours board.

Yes it looks a bit arrogant but it beats the hell out of most of the "celebrations" you see from some bowlers, which basically involve a volley of abuse towards the departing batsman, and perhaps an offensive gesture in his direction. Sreesanth and Harbhajan spring readily to mind. I've never seen Flintoff do anything of that kind.
Well to be honest it probably would, arrogance at any level really pisses me off, it's why I worry for the next generation of Indian players who are emerging in the limited overs set up with yuvraj and harbhajan as their role models. Ganguly came accross to many as arrogant, but he had to present himself as an exceptionally strong minded individual to his players, opposition and the indian public given the circumstances of his appointment and his vision for indian cricket. I wouldn't totally mind if Sreesanth walked out in front of a bus tomorrow, the guy's a complete tool, hopefully this county stint might improve his personality. I think Harbhajan has improved but can still be a bit of a ****, but given what he does off the field I tend to give him a bit of leeway. The thing that annoys me so much about flintoff I suppose is that there seems to be so much hype with so few results, and he seems to buy into his own hype as well, I mean just look at the IPL, $1.5m down the tube from Chennai, I was amazed he demanded such a price. I look at the 05 ashes as the jumping off point for the flintoff most people now perceive, but personally I've always seen Hoggard and Jones as being far more important to that victory than flintoff, strauss too, it's just that flintoff's off field shenanigans and working class hero label make him much more marketable to the media men. He must at some point have sat down and thought of this celebration, I mean what kind of person chooses a celebration like that? Admittedly it's a hell of a lot better than Ishant Sharma's increasingly foul mouthed send offs. There are also all these plaudits for his persona when frankly he's done some pretty damn selfish things over the years. Also I just can't get away from the suspicion that he's from the school of drunken football hooligans, maybe I'm too conservative, I still see cricket as a gentleman's game, let's have more Dravids and Knotts!

p.s. you've neer seen flintoff giving out verbals???
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
I look at the 05 ashes as the jumping off point for the flintoff most people now perceive, but personally I've always seen Hoggard and Jones as being far more important to that victory than flintoff, strauss too, it's just that flintoff's off field shenanigans and working class hero label make him much more marketable to the media men.
:blink:

Hoggard who bowled decently (no more than that) in the last two Tests having done precisely sod-all in the first three? Jones who took a couple of brilliant five-fors in the first-innings' of the Third and Fourth Tests, bowled decently (no more than that) in the Second and did sod-all else? Strauss who made a couple of important centuries, added a couple of quick 30\40-ish scores to give a good start and got out cheaply several times?

As opposed to Flintoff who throughout the last four Tests (the ones England dominated) batted beyond anything anyone could reasonably have expected of him and bowled about as well as you could really hope someone would bowl? Flintoff was in fact England's best batsman of said four Tests; to suggest he wasn't their best bowler would take being Away With The Faeries.

It's true that Flintoff was only ever outstanding for a few years around that 2005 Ashes and that he's not turned-out to be anywhere near as good as many people hoped, but there is no way any other England player came close to his contributions to the domination of the last four Tests of 2005.
 
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Pigeon

Banned
Well to be honest it probably would, arrogance at any level really pisses me off, it's why I worry for the next generation of Indian players who are emerging in the limited overs set up with yuvraj and harbhajan as their role models. Ganguly came accross to many as arrogant, but he had to present himself as an exceptionally strong minded individual to his players, opposition and the indian public given the circumstances of his appointment and his vision for indian cricket. I wouldn't totally mind if Sreesanth walked out in front of a bus tomorrow, the guy's a complete tool, hopefully this county stint might improve his personality. I think Harbhajan has improved but can still be a bit of a ****, but given what he does off the field I tend to give him a bit of leeway. The thing that annoys me so much about flintoff I suppose is that there seems to be so much hype with so few results, and he seems to buy into his own hype as well, I mean just look at the IPL, $1.5m down the tube from Chennai, I was amazed he demanded such a price. I look at the 05 ashes as the jumping off point for the flintoff most people now perceive, but personally I've always seen Hoggard and Jones as being far more important to that victory than flintoff, strauss too, it's just that flintoff's off field shenanigans and working class hero label make him much more marketable to the media men. He must at some point have sat down and thought of this celebration, I mean what kind of person chooses a celebration like that? Admittedly it's a hell of a lot better than Ishant Sharma's increasingly foul mouthed send offs. There are also all these plaudits for his persona when frankly he's done some pretty damn selfish things over the years. Also I just can't get away from the suspicion that he's from the school of drunken football hooligans, maybe I'm too conservative, I still see cricket as a gentleman's game, let's have more Dravids and Knotts!

p.s. you've neer seen flintoff giving out verbals???
C'mon, who doesn't love it when someone stands up and dishes it to the Aussies? :ph34r:

If one were to perceive Flintoff's gesture of standing up and pointing to the sky being arrogant, should also regard the celebrations of batsmen when they reach a 50 or 100 as arrogant. Batsmen are allowed to have their 90 seconds of celebrations when they can pull out their helmets, gloves and what-nots and parade in front of the entire crowd, but when the bowler does a simple non-offensive celebration after a well deserved fifer, it is termed as arrogant.

Bollocks.

Also, he did not "ask" for his IPL price. Instead Chennai SuperKings raised the bid to that level. And also, Flintoff quite deserved that considering his superior ODI record. He is easily one of the best ODI bowlers produced in the last decade and is extremely handy as a middle order batsman also. So I'd not read much into his IPL offer. Also when Mortaza gets picked for 600k dollars, one can safely regard IPL bidding as a false benchmark to judge players.
 
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GIMH

Norwood's on Fire
Well to be honest it probably would, arrogance at any level really pisses me off, it's why I worry for the next generation of Indian players who are emerging in the limited overs set up with yuvraj and harbhajan as their role models.
Ganguly came accross to many as arrogant, but he had to present himself as an exceptionally strong minded individual to his players, opposition and the indian public given the circumstances of his appointment and his vision for indian cricket. I wouldn't totally mind if Sreesanth walked out in front of a bus tomorrow, the guy's a complete tool, hopefully this county stint might improve his personality. I think Harbhajan has improved but can still be a bit of a ****, but given what he does off the field I tend to give him a bit of leeway.

The thing that annoys me so much about flintoff I suppose is that there seems to be so much hype with so few results, and he seems to buy into his own hype as well, I mean just look at the IPL, $1.5m down the tube from Chennai, I was amazed he demanded such a price.
Yeah, WAC, should have said to them, "pay me less than you're prepared to you bastards." :wacko:

oitoitoitoitoitoit said:
I look at the 05 ashes as the jumping off point for the flintoff most people now perceive, but personally I've always seen Hoggard and Jones as being far more important to that victory than flintoff, strauss too, it's just that flintoff's off field shenanigans and working class hero label make him much more marketable to the media men.
Nothing to do with the fact the he averaged 40 with the bat and 27 with the ball, no. I suppose the aussie media that were printing "SOMEBODY STOP HIM" long before the series was won were talking about his forthcoming trip to the bar? Flintoff took more wickets than Jones and Hoggard (and Flintoff was one ahead of Jones after 4 Tests, FTR). He scored more runs than Strauss, and every Australian batsman (the only English batsmen to outscore him were Tresco and Pietersen).

oitoitoi said:
He must at some point have sat down and thought of this celebration, I mean what kind of person chooses a celebration like that? Admittedly it's a hell of a lot better than Ishant Sharma's increasingly foul mouthed send offs.
Yeah, word on the street was that he spent three hours each evening in the lead-up to the Test practicising his celebrations. There is going to be a reality TV series before the 4th Test where we, the viewers, vote for Flintoff's wicket celebrations to be used in that match. He took his 5fer, and he put his arms in the air, OMG!

oitoitoi said:
There are also all these plaudits for his persona when frankly he's done some pretty damn selfish things over the years. Also I just can't get away from the suspicion that he's from the school of drunken football hooligans, maybe I'm too conservative, I still see cricket as a gentleman's game, let's have more Dravids and Knotts!

p.s. you've neer seen flintoff giving out verbals???
What are these selfish things you're talking about?

SOrry for the broken down quote everyone, I hate when they happen, felt obliged here though
 
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grecian

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
This "drunken football hooligan" stuff is winding me up a bit. Freddie may get plastered, but has there ever been any suggestion of violence of any kind?

It's really getting annoying now, oitoitoitoioitoitoi. Likewise with the chav thing. **** me I know there are twatty scum in this society, but I fail to see why you keep on drawing parallels between freddie and them. You probably think Winston Churchill was a football hooligan because he drank a bit8-)

Anyway, I think I've been trolled here, but I am only human unlike the paragons of virtue that others obviously are around here.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Nothing to do with the fact the he averaged 40 with the ball and 27 with the bat, no.
Other way around TBH. And it was something like 47 with bat and 21 with ball in the last four Tests - which were the ones England dominated.
SOrry for the broken down quote everyone, I hate when they happen, felt obliged here though
Neccessary and makes things much easier plenty of the time, IMO. But I guess it's a discussion for somewhere other than Cricket Chat. :p
 

tooextracool

International Coach
Jones who took a couple of brilliant five-fors in the first-innings' of the Third and Fourth Tests, bowled decently (no more than that) in the Second and did sod-all else?

As opposed to Flintoff who throughout the last four Tests (the ones England dominated) batted beyond anything anyone could reasonably have expected of him and bowled about as well as you could really hope someone would bowl? Flintoff was in fact England's best batsman of said four Tests; to suggest he wasn't their best bowler would take being Away With The Faeries.
Nothing to do with the fact the he averaged 40 with the bat and 27 with the ball, no. I suppose the aussie media that were printing "SOMEBODY STOP HIM" long before the series was won were talking about his forthcoming trip to the bar? Flintoff took more wickets than Jones and Hoggard (and Flintoff was one ahead of Jones after 4 Tests, FTR).
Flintoff took more wickets, but that has more to do with the fact that Vaughan, for whatever bloody reason, had very little faith in Jones even though he was the one with the best SR and average for the series. Flintoff was given more overs, ergo he took more wickets. It would take complete delusion for anyone to conclude that Flintoff bowled better than Jones in that series in almost all of the tests in which they both played in. At Lords, Flintoff was shockingly poor certainly outperformed by Jones. At Edgbaston, Flintoff was better than Jones (although the fact that Jones got 5 overs in the crucial 2nd inning might have something to do with that), and both at OT and Trent Bridge (especially) Jones was considerably superior to Flintoff. Anyone who honestly denies that, just wasn't watching.
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
That might matter to fans in India, but in England they very much want their players to get pissed off when they're losing. There's nothing worse than seeing your team bent over royally and the players stand around smiling like they don't give a crap. If Flintoff's got a bit of aggro when things aren't going his way, that's just another reason for his fans to love him.
getting angry doesn't mean behaving stupid...
 

Uppercut

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Flintoff doesn't behave "stupid" when things aren't going his way. Maybe he does things fans of opposing teams don't approve of. Nobody cares.
 

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