Herald Sun's Top 50 Ashes Legends

[The Sean]

Has anyone been following this? The Herald Sun and the Daily Telegraph in Australia have been counting down the Top 50 Ashes Legends, with the top 10 to be revealed tomorrow I believe:

HeraldSun Ashes 2009 Interactive

Some interesting selections and it smacks of a bit of Aussie bias - Hammond and Hobbs down at 34 and 19 are little short of nonsensical. While some rankings seem to be trying too hard to be "different" at the expense of adherence to the Ashes (as opposed to Australia vs England) criteria. Rick McCosker is included at the ridiculously high ranking of number 22 purely on the basis of his - admittedly very brave - innings of 25 with a broken jaw in the Centenary Test, a match in which the Ashes weren't actually up for grabs.

Thoughts?

[The Sean]

Looking at who has gone so far, I think it's pretty clear who the top 10 will be now - though obviously the order is still to be revealed.

[zaremba]

Originally Posted by The Sean

Has anyone been following this? The Herald Sun and the Daily Telegraph in Australia have been counting down the Top 50 Ashes Legends, with the top 10 to be revealed tomorrow I believe:

HeraldSun Ashes 2009 Interactive

Some interesting selections and it smacks of a bit of Aussie bias - Hammond and Hobbs down at 34 and 19 are little short of nonsensical. While some rankings seem to be trying too hard to be "different" at the expense of adherence to the Ashes (as opposed to Australia vs England) criteria. Rick McCosker is included at the ridiculously high ranking of number 22 purely on the basis of his - admittedly very brave - innings of 25 with a broken jaw in the Centenary Test, a match in which the Ashes weren't actually up for grabs.

Thoughts?

I read the list before I read the second part of your post Sean and I was about to make precisely your point that Hobbs at 19 and Hammond at 34 is hard to justify.

Hardly surprising that the Herald Sun has a slight Aussie bias, nothing much wrong with that, and given that the Crims lead 121-95 it could I suppose be justified.

However it does take quite a bit of Aussie bias to mark Sir Len Hutton down as an Australian.

Disappointed to see that Extras hasn't yet featured: England's most consistent performer in the dark times. Perhaps a Top 10 spot beckons?

[Redbacks]

Who would be in the top 10?

Bradman
Warne
Botham
Lillee
Border
Jardine
?
Paynter ??
?
?

[The Sean]

Originally Posted by Redbacks

Who would be in the top 10?

Bradman
Warne
Botham
Lillee
Border
Jardine
?
Paynter ??
?
?

Unless I've missed one of them and they've already gone, I reckon the top ten will be five Aussies:

Bradman
Miller
Warne
Lillee
Border

And five soap-dodgers:

Grace
Botham
Larwood
Laker
Jardine

Fair call about Paynter - possible dark horse, instead of Grace perhaps.

[zaremba]

Some other English names I'd throw in the hat - not sure if any will make the top 10, but they might have got into some people's Top 50 at least:

David Gower: 3264 runs @ 44.78, captained the winning side in 1985 and scored 732 runs in the process

Bob Willis: 128 wickets @ 26.14 including 8 to win at Leeds in '81

SF Barnes: 106 wickets @ 21.58 and reckoned by many to be the best bowler of all time

George Lohmann: 77 wickets @ 13.01

[Redbacks]

I think when the Herald Sun say "based on impact not just records" they probably mean "Blokes the average reader may have heard of or were alive to see play"

Over the test of time maybe Vaughan would get a gig in the lists, take Healy out for his commentary. First as a brilliant batsman in Australia, and then as the leader who helped England bounce back after years of hurt.

I guess Paynter is a player I wouldn't know much about other than hearing about his gutsy innings in the Bodyline series, probably won't make the list whilst averaging 84 against us.

[The Sean]

Originally Posted by zaremba

Some other English names I'd throw in the hat - not sure if any will make the top 10, but they might have got into some people's Top 50 at least:

David Gower: 3264 runs @ 44.78, captained the winning side in 1985 and scored 732 runs in the process

Bob Willis: 128 wickets @ 26.14 including 8 to win at Leeds in '81

SF Barnes: 106 wickets @ 21.58 and reckoned by many to be the best bowler of all time

George Lohmann: 77 wickets @ 13.01

I thought Willis had already gone but I quite shockingly overlooked Barnes. Lohmann, like Turner, would be worthy of a spot in any top 50 but won't get one. I've just realised as well that there's no Frank Tyson and I can't see him getting a top 10 spot.

So given that in Ashes terms the Doctor is probably the most vulnerable of the ten I picked (I reckon the other nine are locks), it means that only one of Grace, Barnes, Paynter, Tyson and Willis are going to make the top 50 at all.

[The Sean]

Originally Posted by Redbacks

Over the test of time maybe Vaughan would get a gig in the lists, take Healy out for his commentary. First as a brilliant batsman in Australia, and then as the leader who helped England bounce back after years of hurt.

Vaughan is there mate, at no.44.

[fredfertang]

Something of a 20/21 century bias - can't see Terror Turner or Bobby Peel's 100+ Ashes wickets at 16 figuring

[zaremba]

Originally Posted by fredfertang

Something of a 20/21 century bias - can't see Terror Turner or Bobby Peel's 100+ Ashes wickets at 16 figuring

Yeah understandable tbh

[Trumpers_Ghost]

Originally Posted by The Sean

Unless I've missed one of them and they've already gone, I reckon the top ten will be five Aussies:

Bradman
Miller
Warne
Lillee
Border

And five soap-dodgers:

Grace
Botham
Larwood
Laker
Jardine

Yeah spot on with that.

The actual order they gave is:
1. Bradman
2. Grace
3.Warne
4. Botham
5. Jardine
6. Lillee
7.Larwood
8. Laker
9. Border
10. Miller

I think the ranking order is pretty random, especially considering Grace at 2 (not a particularly top Ashes performer) and Hammond 34.

Also Massie at 33 (one game wonder), while Trueman (all time great) at 48. hmm

Jardine as high as 5 on the back of one series (in which he was actually dropped for poor form) merely for behaviour that very nearly saw him deservedly lynched. Although I admit that this was very memorable stuff and is a very big part in the history of the Ashes.

Mcosker 22, Hutton 23. thats just totally random

For Ashes impact I think that maybe Aldermann at 21 is too low also.

In fact if Bradman wasn't listed at #1, then I would have presumed that the it was just the top 50 (using whatever criteria) just put in a random order.

cheers

[fredfertang]

Originally Posted by Trumpers_Ghost

Jardine as high as 5 on the back of one series (in which he was actually dropped for poor form) merely for behaviour that very nearly saw him deservedly lynched. Although I admit that this was very memorable stuff and is a very big part in the history of the Ashes.

??????????

[Trumpers_Ghost]

yeah, you learn something new every day hey.

look it up (I can't be bothered and I have to go visit my nan)

[aussie]

Originally Posted by The Sean

Has anyone been following this? The Herald Sun and the Daily Telegraph in Australia have been counting down the Top 50 Ashes Legends, with the top 10 to be revealed tomorrow I believe:

HeraldSun Ashes 2009 Interactive

Some interesting selections and it smacks of a bit of Aussie bias - Hammond and Hobbs down at 34 and 19 are little short of nonsensical. While some rankings seem to be trying too hard to be "different" at the expense of adherence to the Ashes (as opposed to Australia vs England) criteria. Rick McCosker is included at the ridiculously high ranking of number 22 purely on the basis of his - admittedly very brave - innings of 25 with a broken jaw in the Centenary Test, a match in which the Ashes weren't actually up for grabs.

Thoughts?

Dont agree with McCoster & Warner. KP & Tyson should be in instead.