2009 Sides vs 2005 Sides
Okay, now we now almost certainly know what, barring injuries, the England line-up will be and can make a decent stab at the Australian side, lets have a look at how the sides compare to the sides in 2005 as they entered the series (ie without taking in to account the performances in the series)
- Trescothick 2005 vs Cook 2009...its close, both have technical problems and Trescothick had a poor record against the Aussies pre 2005, but Cook also had a poor series last Ashes and his deficiences are harder to hide...Win to 2005
- Strauss 05 vs Strauss 09...have to give it to 05, Strauss was averagin 55 going in to that series and had a great series in SA. He's come back well from being dropped but still not the same expectation.
- Comparing Bell 05 with Bopara 09 is about even, both had few tests, scored runs against limited attacks.
- Vaughan 05 vs Pietersen 09, 09 wins this one, KP is a class batsman whereas Vaughan was merely a good test batsmen albeit with a great previous record against Aus.
- Collingwood 09 vs Pietersen 05, Pietersen had yet to play but he'd scored runs against the Aussies in the ODI's and had a fanstastic FC record. Collie is a decent test batsmen nowadays. Slight win for 05 imo.
- Flintoff 05 vs Flintoff 09. 2005 win easily, even though Flintoff had his best series ever in the Ashes, his form leading up was still a lot better than it has been of late
-Jones 05 vs Prior 09 - I'll give this to Prior, Jones had a poor series in South Africa, Prior has a very decent record (to date).
- Broad 09 vs Giles 05 - Win to Broad, Giles made valuable runs at time, but I think Broad has shown more as a batsmen and Giles hardly ever went beyond a handy 20/30 (had 3 fifties, 2 of which were against Zimbabwe, with a top score of 52)
- Tail 05 vs Tail 09 well Swann>>>any of the bottom 3 of 05, tend to think Jimmy>Hoggard in terms of nightwatchmanness, so i'd say win to 09.
Flintoff 05 vs Flintoff 09, win to 05...if Flintoff had been fit and bowled well against the West Indies I might be inclined to say we would expect more from him now than we did pre Ashes in 09, as it is i think the 05 flintoff has the edge.
Harmison vs Broad - Two bowlers on different trajectories, Harmison was on the way down in 05 (from the heights of 04) whereas I think Broad is on the way up (from the low of 08) however, i think Broad of 2010 might cross with Harmison of 2006..so win to 2005
Hoggard vs Anderson - close one, Hoggard had a good series in South Africa, Anderson has a decent run of form. Might call this a draw, Hoggard was great in swinging conditions but I think Jimmy looks like he would take advantage of them as well. Jimmy might have the edge in non swinging conditions but Hoggard probably wouldn't bowl as much in them. Draw
Jones vs Onions - win to jones, even ignoring what he did in the Ashes he had a longer period of test match form against better oppostion.
Swann vs Giles - Inclined to go for a draw, I certainly think Swann can match the output of Giles in 05, not sure whether we can expect any better.
Like being given the choice of sleeping with the queen or camilla it doesn't make much difference.
Hughes vs Hayden - Close, don't think you could take Hughes over Hayden but might just go for a draw, some people might have predicted Hayden's struggles but I don't think you could have expected it. Hughes just looks so damn good.
Langer vs Katich 09 - Win to 2005 in this i reckon, Katich has gone well as an opener, but Langer had done it for longer and with just as much success.
Ponting 05 vs Ponting 09 - inclined to go for a draw in that one, still has very few weaknesses beyond just top class bowling.
Hussey 09 vs Martyn 05 - Draw again, Hussey still has a great record despite struggling of late and Martyn was considered a very very good player going in to the Ashes.
Clarke 09 vs Clarke 05 - Clarke is a much better player now, win for 09
Katich 05 vs North 05 - Draw again, Katich had a good record in 05, North has made a good start and has decent experience in English conditions
Gilchrist vs Haddin - Win to 2005, Gilchrist still averaged over 50 going in to the series IIRC, Haddin has had a good start but not the level of Gilly.
Johnson vs Warne - You'd have to go for Johnson, Warne had a great series with the bat but on prior form Johnson easily.
Lee 05 vs Lee 09 - Draw, not sure you can call either way
Tail - Gillespie, Mcgrath vs Clark, Siddle - suppose its advantage 05 with Gillespies limpetness.
Clark vs McGrath - win to 05, expect Clark to be very good but he's not Mcgrath
Gillespie vs Johnson - Johnson, Gillespie might have been on the decline, but you still would have expected him to do better than he did, Johnson appears to be on fire though.
Lee 05 vs Lee 09 - have to call it a draw as Lee will be coming in off not that much cricket and his place not really that secure, in 05 he wasn't necessarily secure in his place either
Siddle vs Warne - not comparing like for like but still i'll give the win to 05.
Win to 05 in my opinion, Gilly matured into a very good keeper, Haddin not at his level (yet)
I think England 09 possibly have a worse top six and slightly stronger lower order, the bowling is much weaker. I see Australia's batting as about the same as 05, with their bowling slightly weaker.
Obviously this is as it was at the start of the series and doesn't take in to account what transpired
Thoughts? (apart from tldr)
I think both teams were clearly better in 2005. The only positive for England is that Australia are not as good as they were.
England have gone from being a clear #2 in the World and having a bowling atack touted as the strongest fast bowling line-up a generation, to losing to an inept WI team away and having no clue who their best players are.
England are below average, Austraila are above average. Different from 2005 where England were good and Australia were excellent.
Great read dav. I think I will have a crack at this.
England - Batting
Trescothick (05) V Cook (09) - Definitely giving this one to Trescothick. He may have had technical deficiencies and been poor against ye crims but he had a great record in England and had topped 1000 runs in 2004 IIRC, Cook looks to be addressing a poor run and has finally got that conversion monkey off his back but this series could make or break him tbh, a lot to prove.
Strauss (05) V Strauss (09) - I'm going to disagree with dav here, actually. Yes, his form in the year up to the last Ashes was immense and he scored centuries for fun, however you always felt that it was a honeymoon period that would surely plateau off sooner or later. Whereas as captain I think Strauss bats very intelligently (admittedly he's had a quiet one these last two tests but there is money in the bank) and I'm always shocked these days if he gets out without scoring.
Vaughan (05) V Bopara (09) - Vaughan hadn't scored a lot of runs the previous winter, Bopara has hit three tons in a row. He has certainly looked impressive of late, and I deplore the negativity that has greeted his form in some of the threads BUT he hasn't proven himself against decent bowling yet so it's hard to say. And the Aussies were scared of Vaughan. Gonna be controversial and call it a tie, because despite Bopara being unproven and the fear factor that Vaughan gave the Aussies, form is huge going into a series like this and Bopara clearly has the edge there.
Bell (05) V Pietersen (09) - Hmmmmm tough one, it's a bit like asking me if I'd rather have one pound or fifty....Pietersen wins
Pietersen (05) V Collingwood (09) - It's a tougher question than it looks at first glance. Pietersen went into the series with people wondering whether he was good enough for the test side, but he had certainly put the frighteners up them in the ODIs. He was an enigma, Colly is a known quantity, what you see is what you get. The Aussies won't be scared of him, but at the same time you imagine they'd be rather pleased if they saw the teamsheet and his name wasn't on it? Would you have said the same about Pietersen in 05? Hard to call, might read through some of the threads from back then if I get bored later in the week, well anyway, gonna be controversial and give this to 09.
Flintoff (05) V Flintoff (09) - 2005 by a mile, Flintoff was averaging over 40 in the couple of years leading up to the last Ashes IIRC
Jones (05) V Prior (09) - Prior quite comfortably in isolation, although there was something about Geraint that got him and freddie batting well together, without which we might well have not won the last Ashes. That being said, quite confident that Prior will score runs, much more so than I was in my hero 4 years ago.
Giles (05) V Broad (09) - Broad quite comfortably for me, expect him to score a Test century sooner or later, Giles was steady but never likely to score a big one.
The Rest - 2009 easily, Swann is better than any of the 05 brigade, Jimmy has never got out for nought and well I don't think Onions is up to much but 09 have enough there IMO. Though Simon Jones could swing a bat around.
Interestingly I have given it to 2009 there, perhaps my optimism is getting the better of me, but then again it was out bowling that stood out four years ago, not our batting.
Keeping - Hmmm tough call, both dodgy in different ways I guess, can we play Collingwood there instead?
Flintoff (05) V Flintoff (09) - 05, but not by as much as some think - I hope!
Harmison (05) V Broad (09) - Harmison had had a stinking time in South Africa in 04/05 and Broad has started to recently prove himself as a Test bowler. That being said, I think the Aussies were much more scared of GBH four years ago than they are of Broad now - that might actually work to our advantage but I'm giving this one to 05.
Jones (05) V Onions (09) - Onions has had a decent start but Simon Jones had made a name for himself (though not as much as he would do in the coming Tests!!!) with some very good bowling, 05.
Hoggard (05) V Anderson (09) - This is a really tough call. Tempted to just C & p what dav put, it's really close. The vibe from Anderson at the minute is just so, so confident and you feel he's about to enter the best form of his career, the best series of his career. Reckon the Aussies will be wary of him more than any of our bowlers (bar maybe Freddie) BUT Hoggard's track record was better. yeah, ripping dav off here, tie.
Giles (05) V Swann (09) - The early signs for Swann are good. He had a tough time in India but emerged with a lot of credibility, even if he did average 40 and has obviously had loads of fun against the West indies and their left-handers. It might just be a sign of how much weaker our bowling is this time out but people certainly weren't talking about Giles being a potential key wicket-taker in the same way they are Swann in the lead-up to this. 09.
Strauss's batting seems so much better when he has the armband but he has a lot to prove as a skipper, and will need to be more adventurous than he was in the Carribbean if we realistically want to bring the urn back home. 05 quite comfortably at the minute.
So this team takes the batting, the 05 team takes the captaincy and the bowling.
I cbf to do Australia now tbh, that took me ages
Would like to add fielding into the mix:
Keeper - Jones better than Prior (2005 wins)
Slips - We miss Trescothick in there, but Strauss has done reasonably well and Flintoff is as reliable as ever. (2005 just wins)
Outfielding - KP was hopeless in 2005, Vaughan has always been pretty terrible. We have added in Collingwood and Anderson who are now our two best fielders. (2009 wins)
Keeper - Haddin inexperienced over here, Gilchrist was always very good. (2005 wins)
Slips - replaced Warne and Hayden with all sorts of players since, they can't match up. (2005 wins easily)
Outfielding - depends on whether Symonds plays. Hussey is also an excellent addition. Ponting and Clarke were good before. (2009 just wins)
Pietersen never went into the series as a hopeless fielder though did he? From what I remember it was a surprise when he was dropping everything. Agree with the rest though.
Both 05 teams would beat both 09 teams - to focus on England, we're really only stronger in two places - an experienced Pietersen is obviously valuable, and Prior is much better than Geraint, but Flintoff has regressed, we've got rid of almost all of the bowling attack - though I could argue Swann > Giles, we've lost a great captain and replaced him with a good one, I could go on...
Yeah, I don't think he was meant to be hopeless. I think he'll be fine this time around though.
Originally Posted by GeraintIsMyHero
Nice idea for a thread this.
Originally Posted by superkingdave
I'll give the '09 team a little more credit. Anderson is just ahead of where Hoggard was for me at the moment. He's been absolute class in tests for a good 18 months now.
Swann is, IMO, simply a better bowler than Giles ever was.
Other than that, can't disagree with your assessment of England.
For Australia, I'd have to give Hayden the nod over Hughes. Arguably more is expected of Hughes, but i think that's largely down to the overall difference in quality between the sides (it was harder to stand out when Gilchrist, Warne, McGrath were around). Hayden was a much more proven player.
I'd take today's Lee over 2005's too. Fitness is suspect but IMO you have to work under the assumption that if he's not fit, he won't play. If he does play, I think we've come to expect something more from him. You certainly don't expect him to spray the ball as you would have back then.
Minor point- Siddle is a nailed-on guarantee to play I reckon, should have compared him to McGrath. I think Clark will possibly be the man to miss out.
Unless he's injured there's no way I'd have Clark out of the team. If he's bowling well he should be there. I'd have Lee, Clark, Siddle, and Johnson as the 4 quicks.
I'd probably do the same, I'm just trying to second-guess the selectors. They have the whole over rate obsession thing going on, and already dropped Clark in India. I reckon if someone's going to miss out it'll be him.
Originally Posted by Son Of Coco
I think Australia's attack is potentially more intimidating this time around, 3 150k bowlers, plus a metronome in Clark. Pending on the fitness & form of Lee & Clark over the next 18 months, this could be the most lethal 4-prong pace attack since the Windies heydays...
I think Clark will be a different proposition on English wickets though. Assuming he's fit of course. Can't wait to see Siddle in there, love watching him bowl.
Originally Posted by Uppercut
If the South Africa series is anything to go by, the England batsmen can expect a lot of chin music this series. I expect we won't be as underprepared this time also.
Johnson's batting has been great but Warne was orsm with the bat in the 05 Ashes.
249 runs and 40 wickets IIRC.
Originally Posted by Julian87