After the Whitewash (or How to Lose the Ashes)

Neil Pickup · 05-01-2007, 10:51 AM

These are the fruits of a train journey between Cleethorpes and approximately Rotherham.

Feedback appreciated.

silentstriker · 05-01-2007, 11:19 AM

Great article.

I'd rather have four bowlers, including the all rounder and six top order batsman. If one of the six can send down a few overs, thats good enough. If not, thats still good enough. The depth of English batting would be exceptional if they batted with Flintoff coming in at seven and a keeper at eight. Flintoff would make them the deepest batting lineup in the world. Just look at how much it has helped SA out this series with such vital knocks by Pollock.

Four bowlers, assuming all are fit and have match perparation, ought to be enough. But with Flintoff not at full speed and injury concerns with some of the others...I realize it may not be possible.

silentstriker · 05-01-2007, 11:29 AM

If Jones gets fully fit and FLintoff is better with his ankle, how about Flintoff-Jones-Panesar-Hoggard? Or you can even go with four quicks at Flintoff-Jones-Hoggard-Harmison.

Mr Mxyzptlk · 05-01-2007, 11:32 AM

Top drawer, Pickup. Not enough praise of Mahmood though.

silentstriker · 05-01-2007, 11:35 AM

I love #5...

BoyBrumby · 05-01-2007, 11:51 AM

Top stuff as always. You'd be a huge loss to the fourth estate if you end up a humble pedagogue.

WRT to the four/five bowlers debate I'm still firmly in the five bowlers camp if we have five bowlers worthy of the name. Yes, it'd be nice to have a batter who sent down a few overs or a bowler who could bat, but where are these players in our county scene? We're in serious danger of falling into the "bits-and-pieces" trap again.

Mr Mxyzptlk · 05-01-2007, 12:00 PM

Kevin Pietersen is a bowling allrounder.

wpdavid · 05-01-2007, 12:00 PM

Good piece, showing admirable restraint. Nothing unfair or exaggerated that I could spot.

The only thing I'd add is the complacency that's been present for most of the last 15 months, evident the charge of the ****e brigade at Multan, the "lets not bother with a decent night sleep before playing pakistan so we can wallow in the ashes with the Beeb" episode, the staggering slopiness in all 3 tests against SL, Fred's view that he can publicly refer to our elected PM as a "knob", pretty much every utterance from Steve Harmison this year and, as you mentioned, the idea that we could take on the best in the world after about a week & a half in their neck of the woods. They had this coming big time, and you can only hope that lessons will be learnt, acted on, and not repeated in our lifetimes. Cue pigs flying ....

BoyBrumby · 05-01-2007, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Mxyzptlk

Kevin Pietersen is a bowling allrounder.

Maybe in Natal, buddy, but this is England.

Mr Mxyzptlk · 05-01-2007, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoyBrumby

Maybe in Natal, buddy, but this is England.

Exactly. The land where Rikki Clarke is a batting allrounder. What's your point?

silentstriker · 05-01-2007, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoyBrumby

Top stuff as always. You'd be a huge loss to the fourth estate if you end up a humble pedagogue.

WRT to the four/five bowlers debate I'm still firmly in the five bowlers camp if we have five bowlers worthy of the name. Yes, it'd be nice to have a batter who sent down a few overs or a bowler who could bat, but where are these players in our county scene? We're in serious danger of falling into the "bits-and-pieces" trap again.

But then you have a huge tail. Giles wasn't doing any good but you still need to be able to bat down to #8 with #8 at least able to rotate the strike and stay around for a while. Flintoff gives England the shot to field the deepest batting lineup, even more than the one SA has. And SA has been killing us with that deep lineup this series...its vital IMO.

BoyBrumby · 05-01-2007, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by silentstriker

But then you have a huge tail. Giles wasn't doing any good but you still need to be able to bat down to #8 with #8 at least able to rotate the strike and stay around for a while. Flintoff gives England the shot to field the deepest batting lineup, even more than the one SA has. And SA has been killing us with that deep lineup this series...its vital IMO.

Five bowlers is my ideal, it isn't always appropriate for every test. It isn't desirable to have such a long tail as we do currently, obviously. Which comes back to my point about bowlers being "worthy of the name". Saj may've batted like a drain, but if he'd taken a five-for the game would've looked very different. I actually would've played Dalrymple (almost the dictionary definition of bits-and-pieces) for the fifth test, simply because it's very obvious Flintoff doesn't rate Saj at all and Jamie was more likely to score some runs than Saj or Read.

Fred is the key for balance, obviously. Before he came along we could fudge the issue with Alec Stewart doning the gloves, but now with Fred very much a bowling all-rounder & neither of our keepers looking remotely close to being up to it with the bat, our batting depth is too shallow. Food for thought: we were 234-4 at the end of day one & ended up 291 all out; Oz were 188-4 after day two & finished up 102 runs ahead.

PhoenixFire · 05-01-2007, 01:35 PM

Top stuff Pickup, agree with every point you made

Johnners · 05-01-2007, 04:52 PM

Fantastic article!

James · 05-01-2007, 05:02 PM

Excellent work Neil - well done

05-01-2007, 10:51 AM	#1 (permalink)
Neil Pickup Cricket Web Staff Member / Global Moderator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Oxford, England Posts: 26,361	After the Whitewash (or How to Lose the Ashes) These are the fruits of a train journey between Cleethorpes and approximately Rotherham. Feedback appreciated. __________________ MSN Messenger: minardineil2000 at hotmail dot com \| AAAS Chairman CricketWeb Black \| CricketWeb XI Captain ClarkeWatch: We're Watching Rikki - Are You? Up The Grecians - Exeter City FC Completing the Square: My Cricket Web Blog Last edited by Neil Pickup; 05-01-2007 at 10:59 AM.

05-01-2007, 11:32 AM	#4 (permalink)
Mr Mxyzptlk Request Your Custom Title Now! Join Date: May 2002 Location: Trinidad and Tobago (Trinidad) Posts: 36,795	Top drawer, Pickup. Not enough praise of Mahmood though. __________________ Sreesanth said, "Next ball he was beaten and I said, 'is this the King Charles Lara? Who is this impostor, moving around nervously? I should have kept my mouth shut for the next ball - mind you, it was a length ball - Lara just pulled it over the church beyond the boundary! He is a true legend." The Blog The Portfolio The...er...Twitter

05-01-2007, 11:51 AM	#6 (permalink)
BoyBrumby Englishman Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Doing the stance Posts: 42,622	Top stuff as always. You'd be a huge loss to the fourth estate if you end up a humble pedagogue. WRT to the four/five bowlers debate I'm still firmly in the five bowlers camp if we have five bowlers worthy of the name. Yes, it'd be nice to have a batter who sent down a few overs or a bowler who could bat, but where are these players in our county scene? We're in serious danger of falling into the "bits-and-pieces" trap again. __________________ *- As featured in The Independent.* "This is not the time for namby-pamby promising youngsters who might just do something; not the time for building for the future. Pragmatism rules and they don't come more pragmatic than Rogers." - Victor Marks makes the case for stiff-legged and stiff-armed 35 year old left-handers in Ashes squads

05-01-2007, 05:02 PM	#15 (permalink)
James Cricket Web Owner Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 22,285	Excellent work Neil - well done __________________ Follow Cricket Web on Facebook Follow Cricket Web on Twitter Email - james.nixon@cricketweb.net Moderators - moderators@cricketweb.net (will go to all moderators) Skype - nixonja@hotmail.com Google Talk/Facebook - cricketweb@gmail.com

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05-01-2007, 11:29 AM	#3 (permalink)
silentstriker The Wheel is Forever Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: USA Posts: 36,507	If Jones gets fully fit and FLintoff is better with his ankle, how about Flintoff-Jones-Panesar-Hoggard? Or you can even go with four quicks at Flintoff-Jones-Hoggard-Harmison.

05-01-2007, 11:35 AM	#5 (permalink)
silentstriker The Wheel is Forever Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: USA Posts: 36,507	I love #5...

05-01-2007, 12:00 PM	#7 (permalink)
Mr Mxyzptlk Request Your Custom Title Now! Join Date: May 2002 Location: Trinidad and Tobago (Trinidad) Posts: 36,795	Kevin Pietersen is a bowling allrounder.

05-01-2007, 12:00 PM	#8 (permalink)
wpdavid Cricketer Of The Year Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 7,912	Good piece, showing admirable restraint. Nothing unfair or exaggerated that I could spot. The only thing I'd add is the complacency that's been present for most of the last 15 months, evident the charge of the ****e brigade at Multan, the "lets not bother with a decent night sleep before playing pakistan so we can wallow in the ashes with the Beeb" episode, the staggering slopiness in all 3 tests against SL, Fred's view that he can publicly refer to our elected PM as a "knob", pretty much every utterance from Steve Harmison this year and, as you mentioned, the idea that we could take on the best in the world after about a week & a half in their neck of the woods. They had this coming big time, and you can only hope that lessons will be learnt, acted on, and not repeated in our lifetimes. Cue pigs flying ....

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