Who is for the chop?

[Poker Boy]

After this shambolic Ashes tour, changes are inevitable. So who should get the chop from the Ashes tour party? A few ideas:
1. Giles. A no-brainer surely. Thank you and goodbye Ashley.
2.G Jones: Batting confidence shot to pieces. Back to county cricket - forever?
3.Read: Can't cope under pressure. Back to county cricket - DEFINATELY FOREVER!
4.Plunkett: Why was he picked in the first place?
5.Joyce: The Theo Walcott of the Ashes? Why did Fletcher not give him a chance instead of Mahmood? Had he no faith in him?
6.Mahmood: If SJ and Tremlett get fit...
7.Anderson: ditto.
8.Fletcher as coach : He's done a great job, but he's past his sell-by date. Moody or Woolmer please.
9.Freddie as captain: Will we ever learn? Appoint Strauss with Bell vice-captain - groom him for long-term future.
I'd be interested to see what others think.

[pasag]

Can only get rid of people if there are better players waiting in the wings though. Would like to see Mahmood stick around, he has heaps of potential imo.

[Barney Rubble]

Originally Posted by Poker Boy

After this shambolic Ashes tour, changes are inevitable. So who should get the chop from the Ashes tour party? A few ideas:
1. Giles. A no-brainer surely. Thank you and goodbye Ashley.
2.G Jones: Batting confidence shot to pieces. Back to county cricket - forever?
3.Read: Can't cope under pressure. Back to county cricket - DEFINATELY FOREVER!
4.Plunkett: Why was he picked in the first place?
5.Joyce: The Theo Walcott of the Ashes? Why did Fletcher not give him a chance instead of Mahmood? Had he no faith in him?
6.Mahmood: If SJ and Tremlett get fit...
7.Anderson: ditto.
8.Fletcher as coach : He's done a great job, but he's pasy his sell-by date. Moody or Woolmer please.
9.Freddie as captain: Will we ever learn? Appoint Strauss with Bell vice-captain - groom him for long-term future.
I'd be interested to see what others think.

1. Exactly right. Don't want to see him in an England shirt again, as much as I love him he's not good enough any more.
2. Yep, agree with that.
3. And that.
4. Has a bit of potential, but needs a whole season of county cricket before he should be given another chance.
5. Was only ever going to play if a batsman got injured IMO.
6. Has a future IMO - remember his first spell in Tests? Needs a bit more county cricket and a few less ODIs.
7. Needs more county cricket.
8. Yep, thank you and goodbye Dunc.
9. Definitely agree. Strauss has 3 wins from 4, was harsh to demote him in the first place. Plus Freddie hasn't exactly impressed so far. Bell's probably the only logical option for the vice-captaincy if Vaughan isn't coming back yet - Collingwood would be the first to go if Vaughan did come back, Pietersen doesn't have the personality for it and Cook's too young.

[Poker Boy]

Perhaps, but remember they picked SJ and Tremlett ahead of him when they were fit, so by logic if those two ever recover they should be ahead of him.

[Jamee999]

Originally Posted by Barney Rubble

9. Definitely agree. Strauss has 3 wins from 4, was harsh to demote him in the first place. Plus Freddie hasn't exactly impressed so far. Bell's probably the only logical option for the vice-captaincy if Vaughan isn't coming back yet - Collingwood would be the first to go if Vaughan did come back, Pietersen doesn't have the personality for it and Cook's too young.

A bowler?

[GIMH]

Originally Posted by Poker Boy

After this shambolic Ashes tour, changes are inevitable. So who should get the chop from the Ashes tour party? A few ideas:
1. Giles. A no-brainer surely. Thank you and goodbye Ashley.
2.G Jones: Batting confidence shot to pieces. Back to county cricket - forever?
3.Read: Can't cope under pressure. Back to county cricket - DEFINATELY FOREVER!
4.Plunkett: Why was he picked in the first place?
5.Joyce: The Theo Walcott of the Ashes? Why did Fletcher not give him a chance instead of Mahmood? Had he no faith in him?
6.Mahmood: If SJ and Tremlett get fit...
7.Anderson: ditto.
8.Fletcher as coach : He's done a great job, but he's past his sell-by date. Moody or Woolmer please.
9.Freddie as captain: Will we ever learn? Appoint Strauss with Bell vice-captain - groom him for long-term future.
I'd be interested to see what others think.

Nah, Anderson's a better bowler than any besides our top 4 quicks, he's just badly out of shape and form I reckon.

Why give Joyce the chop before he's ever played a Test?

And we haven't learnt anything we didn't know about Read IMO, so he either shouldn't have been picked or shouldn't be dropped. Don't think they'll have the face to go back to Geraint, I reckon Read will be behind the stumps when WI come to England

[Poker Boy]

About Joyce - remember we only need eleven for a home Test and Vaughan and/or Tesco might come back. My point is - our tail has been crap Mahmood under-bowled and we never thought of giving him a chance and playing four bowlers. Why pick five bowlers if one seems not to have the captain's confidence?

[Barney Rubble]

Originally Posted by Jamee999

A bowler?

I've never been a fan of bowlers as captain/vice-captain. Besides, who's it gonna be? Hoggard or Harmison, and neither of them would suit it anyway.

[adharcric]

1. Definitely.
2. Definitely.
3. Well, he's your best option unfortunately. Find someone else first.
4. Nothing special, but he has nothing to do with the Ashes.
5. Same. Why would you get rid of him?
6. No way. Solid potential.
7. He's fine. Needs some CC action.
8. Definitely.
9. Pretty much. Freddie needs to focus on taking wickets.

[wpdavid]

Apart from the obvious candidates such as Giles & G. Jones, it depends on the shape of the team (i.e. 4 bowlers or 5) and the state of Vaughan's knee & Tresco's mental health. If either of those is available and we're still playing 5 bowlers, then one or two of the batters are going to miss out, which will be a tough call. Any of the top 5 would consider themselves unlucky to lose out, but only KP has done enough to make himself absolutely safe.

As for the quicks, Plunkett must be worried that the selectors view him as even worse than what we've seen from Harmison, Anderson & Mahmood during this series. Obviously S. Jones comes straight back in if fit, and I'd like to see Broad playing ASAP, preferably in place of Harmison, who's still not doing nearly enough to justify the faith that's been placed in him.

If Fred is to stay at number 6, a long shot might be someone like Tom Smith or the Yorkshire leggie whose name escapes me, either of whom is a likelier bet at number 8 than the current bunch.

[Goughy]

Can someone please do me the favour of educating my simple mind and explain how Mahmood has a lot of potential?

[Jamee999]

TBH, Mahmood is keeping Broad's boots warm during his development.

[pasag]

Originally Posted by Goughy

Can someone please do me the favour of educating my simple mind and explain how Mahmood has a lot of potential?

You think he doesn't?

[Barney Rubble]

Originally Posted by Goughy

Can someone please do me the favour of educating my simple mind and explain how Mahmood has a lot of potential?

TBH I feel a bit shaky arguing this with you, seeing as you know far more about the ins and outs of bowling than I ever will, but I think Mahmood's first Test spell proved that he has the capability to trouble international batsmen. The pace, bounce and reverse swing he was getting in his spell against Sri Lanka showed the raw ability he has - it's just a case of harnessing that and getting him to produce it more often. How that can be done, I don't know, and he might turn out to be a complete flop, but I do think if we handle him right, he could be an asset. Not just yet, though.

[Goughy]

Originally Posted by Barney Rubble

TBH I feel a bit shaky arguing this with you, seeing as you know far more about the ins and outs of bowling than I ever will, but I think Mahmood's first Test spell proved that he has the capability to trouble international batsmen. The pace, bounce and reverse swing he was getting in his spell against Sri Lanka showed the raw ability he has - it's just a case of harnessing that and getting him to produce it more often. How that can be done, I don't know, and he might turn out to be a complete flop, but I do think if we handle him right, he could be an asset. Not just yet, though.

Yes, but to be honest I could trouble international batsmen every now and again. Its hardly the basis for an international career.

The fact is, he is not a very good bowler at the international level. He averages less than 3 wickets a game during his FC career (119 in 43 games). He is not a wickettaking bowler in the slightest and a bowler a captain finds hard to trust.

His attributes that you mention (non of which are that dramatically impressive) hide the fact that people are not foucusing on what makes a good bowler. If economy, pressure and accuracy or wickettaking ability are not mentioned when talking about the bowler then the bowler isnt very good. What is his job in the team? Look good or take wickets and keep runs down?

His action is also horrible. He forces everything with his right side. This makes his body pivot and dip leading to the ball coming our like a scatter gun. Basically, he 'shoulders' the ball and that really affects accuracy.

He has done nothing to deserve his place and nothing to keep it.