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Thread: Who is for the chop?

  1. #16
    International Coach Barney Rubble's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goughy View Post
    Yes, but to be honest I could trouble international batsmen every now and again. Its hardly the basis for an international career.

    The fact is, he is not a very good bowler at the international level. He averages less than 3 wickets a game during his FC career (119 in 43 games). He is not a wickettaking bowler in the slightest and a bowler a captain finds hard to trust.

    His attributes that you mention (non of which are that dramatically impressive) hide the fact that people are not foucusing on what makes a good bowler. If economy, pressure and accuracy or wickettaking ability are not mentioned when talking about the bowler then the bowler isnt very good. What is his job in the team? Look good or take wickets and keep runs down?

    His action is also horrible. He forces everything with his right side. This makes his body pivot and dip leading to the ball coming our like a scatter gun. Basically, he 'shoulders' the ball and that really affects accuracy.

    He has done nothing to deserve his place and nothing to keep it.
    Not much I can say in reply to that TBH. Like I said, you know far more about the art of bowling than I do, and on something like this I'd probably back your opinion over my own.

    It's not like I've been especially impressed with anything Saj has done since that one spell, I was just holding onto some vain hope that he might not turn out a complete waste of space.

  2. #17
    State Captain Tomm NCCC's Avatar
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    You still have to say that Fred has been guilt of underusing him. Just your 4 overs so far in this test? He wasnt shockingly expensive either.
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  3. #18
    Hall of Fame Member Goughy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomm NCCC View Post
    You still have to say that Fred has been guilt of underusing him. Just your 4 overs so far in this test? He wasnt shockingly expensive either.
    Well its the argument againt 5 bowlers. There just are not enough overs for 5 bowlers to be used fully (I know England only bowled for 2 sessions in this particular case) and if you are looking to take wickets why would you go for your 5th choice bowler (Im putting Anderson ahead of Saj) ahead of your main 2 or 3?

    There is little logic behind bowling a bowler you think gives you less chance of taking a wicket ahead bowlers you think are better.

    By their very nature, a 5th bowler is not as highly regarded as a 1,2,or 3 and its hard to find any point in the game where you would prefer a lesser bowler bowling than a better one.
    Last edited by Goughy; 03-01-2007 at 10:46 AM.
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  4. #19
    Hall of Fame Member aussie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goughy View Post
    The fact is, he is not a very good bowler at the international level. He averages less than 3 wickets a game during his FC career (119 in 43 games). He is not a wickettaking bowler in the slightest and a bowler a captain finds hard to trust.
    Facts dont tell the whole story. Yes his FC record may not be the greatest, but not all players who have had fantastic FC records have gotten picked immediately. Look at Panesar, Johnson for recent examples both were picked based on potential not fantastic FC stats and gradually the have shown they are capable of doing well on the international stage

    Quote Originally Posted by Goughy View Post
    His attributes that you mention (non of which are that dramatically impressive) hide the fact that people are not foucusing on what makes a good bowler. If economy, pressure and accuracy or wickettaking ability are not mentioned when talking about the bowler then the bowler isnt very good. What is his job in the team? Look good or take wickets and keep runs down?.
    Fair point, but Mahmood does have wicket-taking ability. Bowlers of his ilk who are bowl very quickly aren't the most accurate or economical, they make up for it throught their ability to take wickets i.e Akhtar vs England 2005. Yes Mahmood hasn't shown tremedous wicket-taking ability to date in his international career, but like Harmison who is a very similar type bowler to him, Mahmood just needs one major series to sringboard him into the right direction & he'll be fine IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goughy View Post
    His action is also horrible. He forces everything with his right side. This makes his body pivot and dip leading to the ball coming our like a scatter gun. Basically, he 'shoulders' the ball and that really affects accuracy.

    He has done nothing to deserve his place and nothing to keep it.
    I ain't no expert on bowling actions, but i've seen worst than Mahmood, i.e Malinga, Tait, Edwards, Mohanty, Wickramesinghe to name a few off my head, Mahmood action looks fairly simple to me. He does deserve a place in the side because he is one of the best fast bowlers in the country even if his figures on the international stage don't justify his place in the side ATM. Just give him time..


  5. #20
    Cricket Web Staff Member / Global Moderator Neil Pickup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aussie View Post
    I ain't no expert on bowling actions, but i've seen worst than Mahmood, i.e Malinga, Tait, Edwards
    I think the second half of the sentence proves the first. Textbook actions do not make good actions.
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  6. #21
    Hall of Fame Member Goughy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aussie View Post
    Facts dont tell the whole story. Yes his FC record may not be the greatest, but not all players who have had fantastic FC records have gotten picked immediately. Look at Panesar, Johnson for recent examples both were picked based on potential not fantastic FC stats and gradually the have shown they are capable of doing well on the international stage

    Fair point, but Mahmood does have wicket-taking ability. Bowlers of his ilk who are bowl very quickly aren't the most accurate or economical, they make up for it throught their ability to take wickets i.e Akhtar vs England 2005. Yes Mahmood hasn't shown tremedous wicket-taking ability to date in his international career, but like Harmison who is a very similar type bowler to him, Mahmood just needs one major series to sringboard him into the right direction & he'll be fine IMO.

    I ain't no expert on bowling actions, but i've seen worst than Mahmood, i.e Malinga, Tait, Edwards, Mohanty, Wickramesinghe to name a few off my head, Mahmood action looks fairly simple to me. He does deserve a place in the side because he is one of the best fast bowlers in the country even if his figures on the international stage don't justify his place in the side ATM. Just give him time..
    Firstly how you can compare the pace of Akhtar and Saj is mindboggling. Saj can hit mid 140s. Good pace but not going to scare too many people.

    Harmison and Saj are very different bowlers. Harmison hits the deck at lot harder and they bowl completely different lengths

    You seem to ignore the fact that there isnt anything to back up Saj as being any good. The only evidence you seem to give is that others have not had stellar records or actions have done ok. Well that means nothing. There are plenty of bad bowlers who are exactly that. People fall in love with what Saj supposedly offers without realising that that is not what is important. Its about production and potential to produce and he doesnt have it in him and there is nothing to suggest he does.

    The final statement is funny. How is he one of the best fast bowlers in the country? What has he ever done to deserve such recognition? It makes me wonder what people think the important aspects of being a successful bowler are.
    Last edited by Goughy; 03-01-2007 at 11:28 AM.

  7. #22
    Hall of Fame Member aussie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poker Boy View Post
    After this shambolic Ashes tour, changes are inevitable. So who should get the chop from the Ashes tour party? A few ideas:
    1. Giles. A no-brainer surely. Thank you and goodbye Ashley.
    Really why is everone so hurry to give Gilo the axe?, yea he isn't going to be the first choice spinner now. But he can still be a very useful back-up option esepcially next winter when England go to SRI & we all know how good a bowler Gilo has been in the sub-continent over the years. But don't know if he'll be picked again though..

    [QUOTE=Poker Boy;1027928]
    Quote Originally Posted by Poker Boy View Post
    4.Plunkett: Why was he picked in the first place?.
    Agreed he shouldn't have been picked, but he has some potential, he's very young, time at Durham will do very good. Could come back one day enhanced thus giving England a envious depth in quality fast bowling stocks in the coming years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Poker Boy View Post
    5.Joyce: The Theo Walcott of the Ashes? Why did Fletcher not give him a chance instead of Mahmood? Had he no faith in him?
    Maybe he should have gotten a game, but that doesn't mean he should be axed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Poker Boy View Post
    6.Mahmood: If SJ and Tremlett get fit....
    May be a bit off the mark ATM in his career, but his potential is there for everyone to see, just need to keep working with him

    Quote Originally Posted by Poker Boy View Post
    7.Anderson: ditto.
    ha, Can't have that

    Quote Originally Posted by Poker Boy View Post
    8.Fletcher as coach : He's done a great job, but he's past his sell-by date. Moody or Woolmer please.
    One bad series doesn't make him a bad coach, he's made some stupid decisions in the ashes that he'll regret but i don't think its fair to blame him for us losing the Ashes. I don't think think if he had picked Monty ahead of Giles, picked Read ahead of Jones, Strauss over Freddie as skipper of Broad/Tremlett over Plunkett the Ashes would not be lost. Australia should be given some credit for how well they played.

    But Fletcher will be under-pressure in the VB series & WC to do something good. But for me i hope they give him a chance to go on since i think he's the best coach to help England reach the aim of being the best side in the World.

  8. #23
    Hall of Fame Member aussie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goughy View Post
    Firstly how you can compare the pace of Akhtar and Saj is mindboggling. Saj can hit mid 140s. Good pace but not going to scare too many people.
    Fair enough bad example..

    Quote Originally Posted by Goughy View Post
    Harmison and Saj are very different bowlers. Harmison hits the deck at lot harder and they bowl completely different lengths.
    Can't see how different they are. Both are tall, like to bowl back-of a lenght, both bowl full very sparingly, both rely on extra bounce. Only difference is that Mahmood has some ability to reverse swing it, Harmison can't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goughy View Post
    People fall in love with what Saj supposedly offers without realising that that is not what is important. Its about production and potential to produce and he doesnt have it in him and there is nothing to suggest he does.
    This piece is where your wrong IMO. Its not like Mahmood hasn't done anything good for England that you can say that ``People fall in love with what Saj supposedly offers``, the 4 for 22 he took vs Pakistan @ Leeds was a pretty solid spell, his opening burst vs AUS in the CT was a top new ball spell as well, his 4 for @ MCG wasn't too bad either all showing that he has the tools to cut it at this level just needs to put it together. 4 years ago people were saying the same things about Harmison look how well he has come on (baring one or two hiccups since then.


    Quote Originally Posted by Goughy View Post
    The final statement is funny. How is he one of the best fast bowlers in the country? What has he ever done to deserve such recognition? It makes me wonder what people think the important aspects of being a successful bowler are.
    Talk to county bastmen not only in England but on recent A tours he went on i'm very sure they'll tell you he's one of the better bowlers they have faced in recent years/

  9. #24
    Hall of Fame Member Goughy's Avatar
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    My final thoughts on the matter.

    We have a technical term, in cricketing circles, for a player that is erratic, expensive, struggles to bowl to a plan and struggles to take wickets. Its called a 'bad bowler'

  10. #25
    Hall of Fame Member steds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goughy View Post
    We have a technical term, in cricketing circles, for a player that is erratic, expensive, struggles to bowl to a plan and struggles to take wickets. Its called a 'bad bowler'

  11. #26
    International Coach Barney Rubble's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goughy View Post
    My final thoughts on the matter.

    We have a technical term, in cricketing circles, for a player that is erratic, expensive, struggles to bowl to a plan and struggles to take wickets. Its called a 'bad bowler'

  12. #27
    International Coach PhoenixFire's Avatar
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    You can't drop Mahmood, Plunkett or Anderson. One bad series doesn't make Anderson a bad bowler overnight, Mahmood has potential, and Plunkett is too young to be written off just yet.
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  13. #28
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    I'd like to see them in County Cricket for this season to make sure they get plenty of overs under their belt before we even think about picking them again.

  14. #29
    Hall of Fame Member superkingdave's Avatar
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    Mahmood wouldn't get into my first choice Lancashire side (excluding Flintoff), and it was only the 2005 season where he was regularly left out. If Jimmy hadn't been injured all last year he mightnt have got in the side then.

  15. #30
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    Mahmood - needs a year of bowling for Lancs. And he needs to get some good overs under his belt.
    Giles - Just needs to retire really. Internationally anyway. He doesn't offer enough will the ball to justify selection.
    Plunkett - Nothing against him. But he sort of lost out in the pecking order when he wasn't picked for the 1st/3rd test. I wonder why he didn't play because appererntly he can bat.
    Read - This is the end I believe. Nothing against the man , but he needed a performance and although he was under immense pressure. He didn't perform. Hes going to have to score big , and improve his confidence really.
    Trescothick - Cook and Strauss don't need disrupting at the top. It would be a bad move if he comes back.
    Vaughan - As much as he offers as captain. I believe that Strauss would be a better option. Vaughany just doesn't offer enough with the bat.
    Nixon - He'll get 2 ODI series. Unless he hits about 7-8 hundreds then I doubt he'll be considered again .
    Fletcher - England need a new impotess. Fletcher is a little to defensive for my liking. We need someone with ruthlessness (Not with selection mind you).And someone who can improve the ODI team.
    Flintoff - Get the captaincy of him. Strauss needs it. Flintoff needs (PROPER) time to re-cooperate on his ankle. If that means missing half of the summer (again) then so be it. And he needs to take a break from ODI cricket. As much as it effects the side it doesn't help his Ankle.

    So the team for me next year -

    1) Strauss (Captain)
    2) Cook
    3) Bell
    4) Pietersen
    5) Collingwood
    6) Pothas
    7) Flintoff (Or extra batsman if he isn't fit).
    8) Panesar (He will be a number 8 in the future , why not now)
    9) Harmison
    10) Jones / Tremlett ( If Jones isn't fit move Tremlett to 8)
    11) Hoggard

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