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Thread: If Vaughan, Trescothick and Jones had been fit England would have won.

  1. #16
    Cricketer Of The Year ripper868's Avatar
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    If all were fit, england would have scored say, 20 more runs an innings and bowled australia out for maybe 10 runs less an innings.

  2. #17
    Cricketer Of The Year Anil's Avatar
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    i don't know that jones would've made that much of a difference, an in-form vaughan and trescothick might have and relieved of the burdens of captaincy, flintoff might have played much better, the scoreline might have altered a little but the end result would still have been the same....

  3. #18
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend Matteh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anil
    i don't know that jones would've made that much of a difference,.
    I'd rather have a Jones who wasn't reversing it but still knew how to bowl than Harmison's spraying in the first two/three tests and Anderson's non-test standard bowling.
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  4. #19
    Banned sideshowtim's Avatar
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    Wow, how overrated is Vaughan? Lucky he's a decent captain or his spot would be in danger. He averages 35 since he has become captain.

    Trescothick - Mentally weak, would've gone for single figures in every match. Wouldn't have the strength for a long series

    Jones - Had, what, 4 good matches? And people were hailing him as one of the best bowlers to walk the earth. The other English bowlers can't reverse swing the Kookaburra, gentlemen, so Jones wouldn't have.

    Still would've been 4-0.


  5. #20
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend Matteh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sideshowtim
    Jones - Had, what, 4 good matches? And people were hailing him as one of the best bowlers to walk the earth. The other English bowlers can't reverse swing the Kookaburra, gentlemen, so Jones wouldn't have.
    Read the post above the quoted one.

  6. #21
    International Coach PhoenixFire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sideshowtim
    Wow, how overrated is Vaughan? Lucky he's a decent captain or his spot would be in danger. He averages 35 since he has become captain.
    A test average of 43, 15 hundreds suggests otherwise. Not many players can average 48 against Australia.
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  7. #22
    Eternal Optimist / Cricket Web Staff Member GIMH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sideshowtim
    Wow, how overrated is Vaughan? Lucky he's a decent captain or his spot would be in danger. He averages 35 since he has become captain.

    Trescothick - Mentally weak, would've gone for single figures in every match. Wouldn't have the strength for a long series

    Jones - Had, what, 4 good matches? And people were hailing him as one of the best bowlers to walk the earth. The other English bowlers can't reverse swing the Kookaburra, gentlemen, so Jones wouldn't have.

    Still would've been 4-0.
    With each post I read of yours, you become more of a disastrous poster. You don't think his average since he became captain is anything to do with him being captain?

    Trescothick - yes mentally weak atm, hence why he went home. Tresco at full-fitness, second highest runscorer out last year, and after Flintoff and Warne, who both played like freaks, he was the most consistent player last year.

    It's not just the English who think Jones would have made a difference, Aussies generally do as well. We've all pretty much accepted we would have lost the Ashes anyway, but if you think any one of them would have made no difference to the extent of our defeats, you're living in cloud cuckooland.
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  8. #23
    Banned sideshowtim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeraintIsMyHero
    With each post I read of yours, you become more of a disastrous poster. You don't think his average since he became captain is anything to do with him being captain?
    I'm just saying his form in recent times has been poor. Very poor. Fire it in on off stump and you'll clean bowl him. Ever since he became captain his batting has been shunned and overlooked and he hasn't contributed as much.

    Ponting averages something like 65 as captain.

  9. #24
    International Coach PhoenixFire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sideshowtim
    I'm just saying his form in recent times has been poor. Very poor. Fire it in on off stump and you'll clean bowl him. Ever since he became captain his batting has been shunned and overlooked and he hasn't contributed as much.

    Ponting averages something like 65 as captain.

    Who was comparing him to Ponting???

  10. #25
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    Margin of victories have been so huge that, whilst conceding that they would make a difference, it ludicrous to suggest that the score-line would be any other than it is right now

  11. #26
    School Boy/Girl Captain Shoggz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by social
    Margin of victories have been so huge that, whilst conceding that they would make a difference, it ludicrous to suggest that the score-line would be any other than it is right now
    I don't think it's as simple as that.

    Ostensibly in 2005, Australia had the better players as now, but England matched their intensity and desire to win. I believe Michael Vaughan was a huge factor in that. Also, little pieces of luck helped the English (Ricky Ponting's decision to bowl at Edgbaston, Glen McGrath's injuries etc.) which meant that England didn't lose momentum. That luck has conspicuously left them this time.

    In this series, the whole tone has been different and the Aussies have made the most of it.
    They got off to a magnificent start in Brisbane and (unlike 2005) have kept their boot on the English throat! England have been sliding backwards with every match, becoming more and more shell-shocked. Whilst being an outstanding player, I don't think Freddie Flintoff's captaincy style is suited to playing Australia. You need to be more "hard-nosed" and calculating (a la Vaughan), rather than the 'lead from the front' style, particularly when not 100% fit.

    I believe that if Vaughan and an in-form Jones had been playing, the Australians would still be winning, but the margin would be much less and the matches more competitive.

  12. #27
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Mr Mxyzptlk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Wright
    I don't think Trescothick would have done any better than Cook, with one good score with some mediocre scores.
    The real question then is if Trescothick and Jones were Ashes 2005 fit.
    Sreesanth said, "Next ball he was beaten and I said, 'is this the King Charles Lara? Who is this impostor, moving around nervously? I should have kept my mouth shut for the next ball - mind you, it was a length ball - Lara just pulled it over the church beyond the boundary! He is a true legend."


  13. #28
    International Debutant Salamuddin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeraintIsMyHero
    With each post I read of yours, you become more of a disastrous poster. You don't think his average since he became captain is anything to do with him being captain?

    Trescothick - yes mentally weak atm, hence why he went home. Tresco at full-fitness, second highest runscorer out last year, and after Flintoff and Warne, who both played like freaks, he was the most consistent player last year.

    It's not just the English who think Jones would have made a difference, Aussies generally do as well. We've all pretty much accepted we would have lost the Ashes anyway, but if you think any one of them would have made no difference to the extent of our defeats, you're living in cloud cuckooland.

    Yeah but this series is being played in Australia in case you hadn't noticed....Tres averages 35 away from home which is pretty poor for a supoosedly world class player.
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  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomm NCCC
    Vaughans last tour in Australia he had a great time, Trescothick always hits runs against Australia, a 50 every other innings which would probably save us in at least one game (I dont know which one, though) and Simon Jones is always great, It wouldve been a better contest and you wouldve been sweating a fair bit more, i tell you that
    Vaughan has been out of form for ages, Trescothick can barely lift a bat these days, and Jones would've had no more success than Mahmood or Anderson considering they've had zero success getting the Kooka to reverse.

    Making assumptions that these guys would've all fired if included is way off the mark - look at ol Freddie - he's turned out to be nothing more than a handy bowler in Australia...not a consistent strike bowler, and certainly not an all rounder. Why would've these guys been any different?

    It's not as if England are just starting to play rubbish cricket. They've been playing rubbish since lords 05. This is no stutter...stutters last one series, like the ashes 05 for the Aussies....this is a slide. The only players who Australia might've developed a plan B for is Flintoff and Pietersen - we've already exposed Flintoff the batsman, have conquored Flintoff the bowler...we are still working on Pietersen, but I think his psych is starting to wilt.

    No one in world cricket fears England - Sri Lanka, Pakistan and India have already proven that. England are going to finish 6th overall for their 2006 results. You might care to remember that in their holy year of 2005, they finished worse than this - 7th.

    You are still judging your team on their very best performances - sure their best is pretty good, but why do they all have such mediocre career records? Because they hardly ever produce their best, and they certainly struggle to produce their best away from home. What you have there is inconsistent cricketers. There will be no England dynasty.....the run is already finished...and all you've won is 2 tests against a McGrathless Australia at home, and another 2 tests against a Pollockless South Africa away (let's not bother counting the windies as I do recall our home triumph was dismissed as being meaningless).

    I do remember the scoffing when people dared to suggest what might've happened if these rather important players were on the field. The difference is predictions of what might've happened if McGrath or Pollock were playing are a lot easier to make - they are champions who consistently produce - Vaughan, Trescothick and Jones, are not.
    Last edited by valvolux; 01-01-2007 at 02:32 AM.

  15. #30
    Cricketer Of The Year SirBloody Idiot's Avatar
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    If Vaughan and Trescothick had played, Bell and probably Collingwood may have been left out, and England would lose by more.

    Trescothick would have been destroyed this series.

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