WANTED: One English wicket-keeper

[PhoenixFire]

Having Flintoff at 8 is just going too far.

[aussie]

Originally Posted by marc71178

So we still have a pathetic number 8 then?

Surely the idea is to put in a proper batsman to drop Flintoff to 7 then a keeper at 8 and 3 other bowlers?

Even if Pothas does get a chance & bats @ 7, the case will still be the same. The option to have a keeper @ 8 is an option, Read is doing well with the gloves but he'll have to contribute with the willow a lot more in the future or esle he'll be gone soon. Since i don't see Davies as a #8 keeper.

[aussie tragic]

Originally Posted by PhoenixFire

Having Flintoff at 8 is just going too far.

And yet again I say that Flintoff at # 7 would be a perfect plan for the English team as a specialist bat would be at # 6 and the WK would be at # 8 so that he can have some time to develop without so much pressure..... just a thought....

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

The question is how much of a difference is there between a 5-pronged England attack and a 4-pronged attack. And if Mahmood is the 5th prong, I'd say there's not much of a difference in terms of effectiveness. As such, I'd advocate a specialist batsman at 6, Flintoff (fully fit) at 7 and Read at 8.

[BoyBrumby]

Originally Posted by Mr Mxyzptlk

The question is how much of a difference is there between a 5-pronged England attack and a 4-pronged attack. And if Mahmood is the 5th prong, I'd say there's not much of a difference in terms of effectiveness. As such, I'd advocate a specialist batsman at 6, Flintoff (fully fit) at 7 and Read at 8.

I'm inclined to agree. I've generally been a staunch advocate of a five-man attack, but when the captain palpably doesn't rate and/or trust his fifth option it becomes pointless. The only reason we've got to play a fifth specialist bowler just now is Fred's ankle being shot. He couldn't do 25% of the bowling without dire consequences for his long-term future.

If at any point we could put out a fit & firing attack of Flintoff, Harmison, Hoggard, Jones & Panesar the five-man attack again has merit. Tis a pity none of the last four can bat for toffee tho.

[age_master]

Originally Posted by Mr Mxyzptlk

The question is how much of a difference is there between a 5-pronged England attack and a 4-pronged attack. And if Mahmood is the 5th prong, I'd say there's not much of a difference in terms of effectiveness. As such, I'd advocate a specialist batsman at 6, Flintoff (fully fit) at 7 and Read at 8.

I have to agree, the 5th English bowler rarely seems to do much apart from get hit around.

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Originally Posted by BoyBrumby

Tis a pity none of the last four can bat for toffee tho.

Simon Jones ain't the worst...

[Bob Bamber]

Originally Posted by Mr Mxyzptlk

The question is how much of a difference is there between a 5-pronged England attack and a 4-pronged attack. And if Mahmood is the 5th prong, I'd say there's not much of a difference in terms of effectiveness. As such, I'd advocate a specialist batsman at 6, Flintoff (fully fit) at 7 and Read at 8.

The difference is that with 5 bowlers and Giles England needed the four seemers to try and take the wickets while Gilo held up an end. With it I would still stay with the 5. I think with Pothas at 6 Flintoff at 7 there is enough batting. The only reason this has been bought up now is that the batsmen have failed. If Flintoff and Jones/Read were in any kind of form I don't think we'd be having this discussion.

Its also a bit of a negative move.

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Originally Posted by Bob Bamber

The difference is that with 5 bowlers and Giles England needed the four seemers to try and take the wickets while Gilo held up an end. With it I would still stay with the 5. I think with Pothas at 6 Flintoff at 7 there is enough batting. The only reason this has been bought up now is that the batsmen have failed. If Flintoff and Jones/Read were in any kind of form I don't think we'd be having this discussion.

Its also a bit of a negative move.

England don't have a 5th bowler worthy of playing. And the 5th bowler who is playing isn't getting the overs to have an impact even if he could bowl out Boycott's mum.

It's negative to pick an extra bowler because you don't have faith that your 4 best bowlers can do the job. If England had four specialist bowlers worthy of selection, it would be a different matter. But as things stand, they barely even have 2, so why bother to play a substandard 5th?

[BoyBrumby]

Originally Posted by Mr Mxyzptlk

Simon Jones ain't the worst...

Good stuff that. Depressing how good the boy is/was. Hope he gets back to full fitness sharpish.

As a batsman he obviously has a good eye & as he's a big, strong Taff when he hits it it goes a fair way, but I still don't see a test 8 in him quite.

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

That yorker length ball that he blocked through the covers for four was something special though.

[aussie]

Originally Posted by Mr Mxyzptlk

The question is how much of a difference is there between a 5-pronged England attack and a 4-pronged attack. And if Mahmood is the 5th prong, I'd say there's not much of a difference in terms of effectiveness. As such, I'd advocate a specialist batsman at 6, Flintoff (fully fit) at 7 and Read at 8.

But full strenght its a different story once Jones is fit again, then again Read @ 8 will only work if he scores runs in the coming months, even if his keeping remains top notch.

But if Jones does prove England's version on Bond then the 4-bowlers could work, but the keeper dilemma would still be up..

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Originally Posted by aussie

But full strenght its a different story once Jones is fit again, then again Read @ 8 will only work if he scores runs in the coming months, even if his keeping remains top notch.

But if Jones does prove England's version on Bond then the 4-bowlers could work, but the keeper dilemma would still be up..

I'm not convinced that Harmison deserves to be in the England Test team right now. Especially if he's not getting the new ball... which he isn't.

Hoggard, Flintoff (when fit), Panesar, Jones (when fit).

[marc71178]

Originally Posted by aussie

But full strenght its a different story once Jones is fit again, then again Read @ 8 will only work if he scores runs in the coming months, even if his keeping remains top notch.

Compared to the other options we've seen at 8 (Saj being the current one) - double figures would be enough.

[Goughy]

Originally Posted by Bob Bamber

The difference is that with 5 bowlers and Giles England needed the four seemers to try and take the wickets while Gilo held up an end. With it I would still stay with the 5. I think with Pothas at 6 Flintoff at 7 there is enough batting. The only reason this has been bought up now is that the batsmen have failed. If Flintoff and Jones/Read were in any kind of form I don't think we'd be having this discussion.

Its also a bit of a negative move.

I love it how people think you can ever have enough batting. There would still be a weak tail. Pothas, if he played, could bat 8 and an extra specialist batsman would bat 6. It gives Eng an opportunity to be the strongest and longest in terms of batting.

Im not going to go in to why 5 bowlers is a bad idea for the 100th time. Apart from to say that to win Tests you must score more runs than your opponents and virtually every test shows the benefits of guys lower down scoring runs (Pollock, Warne etc) and turning a potentially average total into a good one and being able to salvage an innings if the top order collapses. Also, f you want to win games you have to bowl the opposition out relatively cheaply (generally in under 90 overs) and there are not enough overs in these scenarios for 5 bowlers to bowl equally and heavily, and usually at least 1 bowler is left twiddling his thumbs whilst the others take wickets and bowl overs.