Andrew Flintoff - post Ashes

[Craig]

Sorry if it is in the wrong forum, if it is feel free to move to move it to the Ashes one

Well if he doesn't give up the captaincy now after Perth then he will surely do it after Sydney and it is clearly a mistake to give him the captaincy, he is simply not cut out for the job. In that I mean he isn't cut out for it with all of his work load and plus some of captaincy onfield as well.

But my question is do you think we will see a completely different play now? The defeat, the burden of captaincy and all of his roles on and off the field and trying to deal with the brutal British press and facing the prospect of being the first English captain to lose 5-0 in the Ashes in 85 years IIRC.

Or will he bounce back and be his full of confidence with bat or ball when he could change a session and a match with some powerfull hiting or brilliant bowling? Remember last year when he was making key breakthroughs for England and had Gilchrist on his leesh?

[Matt79]

Somewhere between the two. I think last year was Flintoff's Everest, and I doubt he'll ever reach quite those heights again. That said, I think he'll be a very fine player, and probably the world's best allrounder for several years to come.

I agree, in retrospect it seems obvious he wasn't the right choice as captain, and the sooner Vaughan is back and he slides down to number 7, the better for him and England.

[Steulen]

Flintoff works best as a number 7 batsman and a third seamer. With the rise of Panesar, who is a very worthy versatile spinner, I think England can afford to play six batsmen, Flintoff at 7, Read at 8 and then Panesar, Harmison, Hoggard as the tail. Bell, Collingwood and Pietersen, and perhaps Vaughan if he ever returns, are more than capable of being a combined fifth bowler, perhaps not a la Kallis, but certainly in the Symonds mould.

If they do so, Flintoff will be a different cricketer...a better one.

[Matt79]

Agreed - England need Freddie to fire more as a bowler than as a batsman, runs haven't been the problem this series generally.

There simply isn't a good enough fifth bowler to merit depriving the team of an specialist batsman - let Freddie be a bowling allrounder who is less likely to need to try and bat for hours and hours...

[oz_fan]

I agree with the posts already made, Flintoff is definately a number 7. There has been too much pressure on him during this Ashes series to take wickets with the new ball, contribute runs in the middle order, all the while leading the team on the park against the best team in the world. Like Matt said it will be difficult for him to regain his 2005 Ashes form but I expect him to bounce back once the Ashes is over and some of the pressure is off him.

[silentstriker]

At this level, you can't get caught up in a single win or loss. The English put way too much importance in the Ashes. Its just one series, it happens.

[Barney Rubble]

Am predicting a slow decline in Flintoff's performances from here on in. He's never going to completely ditch this ankle injury, and his batting isn't good enough to justify his place if he can't bowl properly. Either he's going to have to prove he's capable of being a Test number six (and by that I mean average 40+), or he's going to have to overcome the injury, or he's going to have to move to number seven. Fingers crossed it's the latter - he might still be a class act for a while yet if so.

[pasag]

Hope the same thing that happened to Smith doesn't happen to Flintoff. Anyways, he's a champion and not really a total confidence player (like Harmison) so he'll be just as good for years to come imo.

[adharcric]

I said it during England's tour of India and I'll say it again. Flintoff should not be relied upon for consistent runs at #6. He probably peaked out in last year's Ashes but he can still be one of the very best. Poor showing from him thus far in this series; hopefully, he does something to salvage pride for England in the final two tests.

[aussie]

Originally Posted by Matt79

Somewhere between the two. I think last year was Flintoff's Everest, and I doubt he'll ever reach quite those heights again. That said, I think he'll be a very fine player, and probably the world's best allrounder for several years to come.

I agree, in retrospect it seems obvious he wasn't the right choice as captain, and the sooner Vaughan is back and he slides down to number 7, the better for him and England.

Hit the nail on head here, well said..

[Matt79]

Originally Posted by silentstriker

At this level, you can't get caught up in a single win or loss. The English put way too much importance in the Ashes. Its just one series, it happens.

Are you referring to the 2005 Ashes or the 2006 version?

[Poker Boy]

I never thought he should be captain anyway - and this goes right back to India. Had we lost that series 0-2 - and you could say but for Dravid's stupidity at the toss we would have - he might have lost the captaincy there and then which would have been better. I know he did well in India but we batted first every match so he never had to bat after a long day's bowling. We've learnt nothing from Botham - how many great all-rounders have good records as captains? imran yes but the rest...relive him of the captaincy and he'll be back to his best - provided his ankle holds up (I don't think he's 100% fit right now). Vaughan or Strauss for captain.

[marc71178]

Originally Posted by adharcric

I said it during England's tour of India and I'll say it again. Flintoff should not be relied upon for consistent runs at #6.

To be fair didn't he average well over 40 for a fairly long period (couple of years at least) not too long ago?

[silentstriker]

Originally Posted by Matt79

Are you referring to the 2005 Ashes or the 2006 version?

Both. This is just one series - even if the focus is greater. England won home and away for nearly three years now, and one series is just that - a small part of the overall cricketing body of work.

[BoyBrumby]

Originally Posted by adharcric

I said it during England's tour of India and I'll say it again. Flintoff should not be relied upon for consistent runs at #6. He probably peaked out in last year's Ashes but he can still be one of the very best. Poor showing from him thus far in this series; hopefully, he does something to salvage pride for England in the final two tests.

4 50s & an average in excess of 50 on that tour. Passable IMHO.

That said I think Fred has now slipped from genuine all-rounder to bowling all-rounder. There's no way he would currently make our test team on his batting alone.

As Barney points out his ankle injury is probably chronic so careful management is the best we can hope for & we don't really know how much it's discomforting him. Quite a fair bit is my guess. His pace at Adelaide (apart from Australia's brief second innings where I'd guess he was running on adrenaline) & Perth was a fair bit down from Brisbane.

I think we may see him at 7 in Melbourne actually, with Dalrymple coming in at 6 for Mahmood.