Fletcher's a joke

[Scaly piscine]

Harbhajan averages 57 against them, Vettori averages 100...

Yardy and Dalrymple dominated them in the NatWest Series. Vettori 3 Tests against them and bowled on two roads and a seamers' wicket. Harbhajan's 57 is because of the last two Tests where he played on two roads (679-7 plays 410-1, 588 & 490-8 declared after a collapse plays 603). You'll find a lot of spinners averages are bloated by playing on Pakistan's roads, but when there's a bit in the pitch it's a different story and Pakistan don't generally play it particularly well - with the odd exception obviously.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

They're not good players of *finger* spin. India, SL and Australia are better at playing it. When you're comfortably below three teams at playing finger spin then you can hardly call yourself good players of it.

So which fingerspinners other than Panesar have had success against Pakistan? There's Giles, but that's about it.

 

[greg]

Yardy and Dalrymple dominated them in the NatWest Series. Vettori 3 Tests against them and bowled on two roads and a seamers' wicket. Harbhajan's 57 is because of the last two Tests where he played on two roads (679-7 plays 410-1, 588 & 490-8 declared after a collapse plays 603). You'll find a lot of spinners averages are bloated by playing on Pakistan's roads, but when there's a bit in the pitch it's a different story and Pakistan don't generally play it particularly well - with the odd exception obviously.

Panesar bowled on at least 3 roads and a seamers pitch vs Pakistan He can hardly be penalised for having an ability to get more spin (and find spin on a greater range of surfaces) than your regular finger spinner.

 

[greg]

Anyway the statement being challenged at the start of this was that Vettori is a better bowler than Panesar. So arguing that they are equally useless (but less useless, presumably, than Giles) doesn't really get to the argument.

 

[Armadillo]

Yardy and Dalrymple dominated them in the NatWest Series. Vettori 3 Tests against them and bowled on two roads and a seamers' wicket.

You can't relate to one dayers in this argument, you're not seriously saying that Yardy and Dalrymple would have dominated Pakistan in tests.

 

[Dasa]

Panesar is not as good as Vettori.

Vettori seems to be ridiculously overrated at times. He's a good ODI bowler, but has been largely ineffective in Tests for a long time.

 

[shortpitched713]

Based on reality. Panesar is ridiculously over-rated. If he had played these first two Tests his average would be up to 35+ by now because he'd have finally played on some spin unfriendly wickets against good players of finger spin.

Duncan Fletcher???

Seriously laughable statement. The flat pitches that he played on in the subcontinent were not condusive to bowling of any sort, neither seam nor spin. The fact that he doesn't have an average of 35+ already really nullifies your point.

 

[Top_Cat]

Regarding Dunc Fletcher and lack of respect for opposition, it's nothing new for him. When he was playing for Zimbabwe, he was exactly the same; lacking on couth and respect. It's no surprise because he had to be an expert in getting under the noses of opposition to DEMAND respect if he was to do well at International level and for Zimbabwe to do well.

Want proof? Have a look at his ODI debut which happened to be Zimbabwe's ODI debut;

http://content-aus.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/65066.html

He essentially won that game himself. Takes a lot of ability (he was about 36 at the time too) but against a team as strong as that one was, to take them on like he did, took a lot of guts. And a healthy lack of respect for the opposition. So really, he's just reverting to type.

As for whether he should go, nah I don't think so. England's poor performances have more to do with poor selection (in my opinion) and just poor form than anything else. They really have been ordinary since they arrived and I don't think he should be made to carry the can for that.

 

[Retox]

Vettori seems to be ridiculously overrated at times. He's a good ODI bowler, but has been largely ineffective in Tests for a long time.

I don't think alot of normal people rate Vettori as a test bowler, Infact Patel would probally be a better pick, But you can't drop your next cap.


Anyway I love how it's always the coaches fault not the players


We lost the ashes? it can't be beacuse our players failed. Lets blame the coach.

Both the players and the coach have to take equal blame for a series loss.

It's the all blacks all over again. Get beaten in the world cup? fire the coach but keep the same players...

 

[greg]

.

It's the all blacks all over again. Get beaten in the world cup? fire the coach but keep the same players...

Yeah, that's been a disaster...

 

[Matt79]

Its the coach's fault some of those players who most prominently failed were in the team, when there appear to be better alternatives.

 

[PhoenixFire]

Do people remember? In 2005 he was god, in 2006, he is a criminal. He can't be all that bad, better than some people at least.

 

[howardj]

Fletcher Wrongly Blamed

 

[silentstriker]

The Courier-Mail has learned that at team selection meetings in Adelaide, Fletcher leaned toward Panesar to play in the Test but captain Andrew Flintoff went for his Lancashire teammate, swing bowler Jimmy Anderson, who went on to perform poorly and may not play another Test on tour.

Flintoff won out after the issue was discussed by a committee of senior players including Geraint Jones and Andrew Strauss.

The fallout over the omission of Panesar has become so great in England that it is threatening to undermine Fletcher's future as England coach and also drive a wedge between Fletcher and Flintoff.

Freddie - oh - Freddie...you shouldn't play favorites either. Flintoff did under bowl Monty when he had the chance, I don't know if he rates him as any good. Hopefully he'll realize that they need all the bowlers they can get to take 20 wickets.

 

[Neil Pickup]

It does concern me just a tiny bit that Geraint Jones is on the selection committee.

 

[Gloucefan]

It does concern me just a tiny bit that Geraint Jones is on the selection committee.

I agree, it's quite ironic.

 

[techno t]

I agree, it's quite ironic.

ah ha thats how he gets in the sodding team

*

 

[cricket_fan23]

It does concern me just a tiny bit that Geraint Jones is on the selection committee.

It would be like Mick Lewis being one of Australia's.

 

[Retox]

But flintoff can't do no wrong...

 

[Scaly piscine]

Duncan Fletcher???

Seriously laughable statement. The flat pitches that he played on in the subcontinent were not condusive to bowling of any sort, neither seam nor spin. The fact that he doesn't have an average of 35+ already really nullifies your point.

Go look at the three games he's played in India. Two results, highest innings score of either side in the whole series was 400. Only in the first game did all of the spinners struggle a bit. I would suggest you actually bother to look at the games in question before you open up with your hysterical salvo.