Fletcher - Time To Go?

[Matteh]

Originally Posted by FaaipDeOiad

It'd be like Australia picking Brad Hogg as our test spinner because he is a good batsman.

Based on Brisbane, i'd be happy enough to pick Pietersen as our test spinner because he's a good batsman.

[greg]

I'd like the option - "yes after this test"! At least with England's batting performing our lack of fire in the bowling due to the ludicrous trade off between 20 runs at no8 vs wickets from your spin bowler is likely to brought into stark contrast, hopefully without actually costing England any hope in the series.

Nicked from another forum...

Can anybody make a case for Giles’ inclusion in the team?

Here is the case:
(conversation between English Ashes tour selectors, Duncan Flether and Andrew Flintoff)

DF - We seem to have a bit of a problem with a long tail in our batting.
AF – Hmmm…what can we do about it. We can’t have a long tail.
DF – I know, we’ll include Ashley Giles, he should be fresh and really up for the battle. Hasn’t played for 12 months you know.
AF – 12 months, really. That long is it. Well yes then he should be really fresh and up for the battle.
DF – And he was a major part of our 2005 Ashes success. It was even named after him.
AF – Funny I never realised that, you’re right, Ash’s success.
DF – And he’s great to have in the dressing room.
AF – But I thought we were going to include him in the team to go out onto the ground.
DF – No, I mean before play, during breaks etc.
AF – Oh yes, good point.
DF – He averages 21 with the bat, you know. But it’s not just the runs he gets, it’s the way he gets them. Really sticks it up them he does. And it’s the runs that the other player scores whilst batting with him.
AF – Averages 21? What’s his average against Australia?
DF – How’s your ankle coming along?
AF – Fine, you know I was reading the other day that Brett Lee averages 30 with the bat against England, and Shane Warne about the same during the last 10 games or so. So lucky we’ve got a proper number 8.
DF – Yes but Warne and Lee haven’t had to face Warne during this period. Great spinner.
AF – Yes, they’ve only had to deal with our spinner, that wouldn’t be hard. Avearges 55 against them, strike rate 90, economy rate 3.7 rpo. Who is our spinner again anyway?
DF – Ashley’s just has a few unlucky games.
AF – What’s his batting average against Australia then, I bet it’s higher than Warne’s and Lee’s, they’re just sloggers? I read the other day Dennis Lillee averaged 17 with the bat against England, Merv Hughes and Geoff Lawson 16, and none of them could bat. Ashley must average at least 30 in Ashes contests?
DF – Panesar can’t bat, you know. Can’t field and I no longer think he’s the best left arm orthodox spinner of Indian descent playing for England in the world. I was only saying that anyway. PR exercise. He was getting a bit too popular. For some unknown reason, people really seem to like him.
AF – yeah, you’re right, Giles must play. Averages 55 with the ball against Australia, 16 with the bat, and he’s great in the dressing room. And he’s fresh.
DF – Glad you see it my way old boy. Big future for you as captain of this team you know.

[PY]

The only justification of not picking Monty is that he thinks KP is going to bowl like his mate Warney and take some serious overs.

[aussie]

i'd admit he made some bad selection decision & selections in his time, but overall i think he is doing a good job. I won't blame him for England's poor ODI performances in his time incharge, it has more to do with the quality of players England have had available in his 7 years which with the exception of Trescothick, Knight, KP, Freddie, Collingwood, Stewart, White, Gough have not been able to take the test success over to the ODI side.

Pretty similar to the football team i that regard, one of those hair pullers..

[Craig]

After the World Cup, but England are pretty shoddy in ODIs so it probably doesn't matter if he goes or not after the Ashes

[Matt79]

Pathetic that Paneser hasn't played in this test. He does realise that England are 1-0 down and will now have to WIN some matches rather than play for the draw doesn't he?

[GIMH]

In retrospect, maybe he should have gone on September 13th. He's in serious danger of destroying his legacy now - he's well on course to be the man who masterminded Australia regaining the Ashes

That's not to take anything away from what the Crims so this season, but you get my point

[tooextracool]

I think its absolutely stupid that Monty hasnt played yet. On a turner, Monty>>>>> Giles and poses a much greater wicket taking threat. How on earth can anyone justify going in with the same attack that took 10 wickets for 800 runs last game? It really does look like hes trying to relive the past Ashes series atm. Theres no other explanation for why Giles and Jones are both in the side, as well as for not tampering with the side for the 2nd test.I wouldnt be too surprised if he got upset with Bell for batting too slow and not dominating the bowlers a la Edgbaston tbh.
I've certainly never rated Duncan Fletcher too highly, especially after reading his autobiography and how hes actually been recommending that the England batsmen continue to play the sweep shot, despite half of them getting out to it every test match. Boycott was right, he needs to go. Who should replace him though? I think England could really use someone similar to Nasser Hussain, although i dont think hes open for coaching.

[tooextracool]

Originally Posted by aussie

i'd admit he made some bad selection decision & selections in his time, but overall i think he is doing a good job. I won't blame him for England's poor ODI performances in his time incharge, it has more to do with the quality of players England have had available in his 7 years which with the exception of Trescothick, Knight, KP, Freddie, Collingwood, Stewart, White, Gough have not been able to take the test success over to the ODI side. .

You do realise that you could make an entire side with that?
Fletcher has been disgraceful in ODIs period. its not a question.

[Matt79]

Originally Posted by tooextracool

I think its absolutely stupid that Monty hasnt played yet. On a turner, Monty>>>>> Giles and poses a much greater wicket taking threat. How on earth can anyone justify going in with the same attack that took 10 wickets for 800 runs last game? It really does look like hes trying to relive the past Ashes series atm. Theres no other explanation for why Giles and Jones are both in the side, as well as for not tampering with the side for the 2nd test.I wouldnt be too surprised if he got upset with Bell for batting too slow and not dominating the bowlers a la Edgbaston tbh.
I've certainly never rated Duncan Fletcher too highly, especially after reading his autobiography and how hes actually been recommending that the England batsmen continue to play the sweep shot, despite half of them getting out to it every test match. Boycott was right, he needs to go. Who should replace him though? I think England could really use someone similar to Nasser Hussain, although i dont think hes open for coaching.

Thought Geraint's actually not been too bad tbh. Not in the Gilchrist (in form) or Flower category with the bat certainly, but provided some stubborn resistance at times, and held up an end. And his keeping's been ok, from what I seen.

[tooextracool]

Originally Posted by Matt79

Thought Geraint's actually not been too bad tbh. Not in the Gilchrist (in form) or Flower category with the bat certainly, but provided some stubborn resistance at times, and held up an end. And his keeping's been ok, from what I seen.

Thats besides the point though. Whether Geraint scores 200 or 300 runs and takes 10 catches this game is irrelevant. When you make selections, you dont have the benefit of hindsight. Read deserved to get as much of a chance as Jones did, he certainly didnt deserve to get dropped from the test side after doing nothing wrong while Jones had done nothing right. And now unless Jones makes a complete mess of things i doubt we'll see Read in the side this series or perhaps ever.

[Slow Love™]

Originally Posted by greg

Here is the case:
(conversation between English Ashes tour selectors, Duncan Flether and Andrew Flintoff)

DF - We seem to have a bit of a problem with a long tail in our batting.
AF – Hmmm…what can we do about it. We can’t have a long tail.
DF – I know, we’ll include Ashley Giles, he should be fresh and really up for the battle. Hasn’t played for 12 months you know.
AF – 12 months, really. That long is it. Well yes then he should be really fresh and up for the battle.
DF – And he was a major part of our 2005 Ashes success. It was even named after him.
AF – Funny I never realised that, you’re right, Ash’s success.
DF – And he’s great to have in the dressing room.
AF – But I thought we were going to include him in the team to go out onto the ground.
DF – No, I mean before play, during breaks etc.
AF – Oh yes, good point.
DF – He averages 21 with the bat, you know. But it’s not just the runs he gets, it’s the way he gets them. Really sticks it up them he does. And it’s the runs that the other player scores whilst batting with him.
AF – Averages 21? What’s his average against Australia?
DF – How’s your ankle coming along?
AF – Fine, you know I was reading the other day that Brett Lee averages 30 with the bat against England, and Shane Warne about the same during the last 10 games or so. So lucky we’ve got a proper number 8.
DF – Yes but Warne and Lee haven’t had to face Warne during this period. Great spinner.
AF – Yes, they’ve only had to deal with our spinner, that wouldn’t be hard. Avearges 55 against them, strike rate 90, economy rate 3.7 rpo. Who is our spinner again anyway?
DF – Ashley’s just has a few unlucky games.
AF – What’s his batting average against Australia then, I bet it’s higher than Warne’s and Lee’s, they’re just sloggers? I read the other day Dennis Lillee averaged 17 with the bat against England, Merv Hughes and Geoff Lawson 16, and none of them could bat. Ashley must average at least 30 in Ashes contests?
DF – Panesar can’t bat, you know. Can’t field and I no longer think he’s the best left arm orthodox spinner of Indian descent playing for England in the world. I was only saying that anyway. PR exercise. He was getting a bit too popular. For some unknown reason, people really seem to like him.
AF – yeah, you’re right, Giles must play. Averages 55 with the ball against Australia, 16 with the bat, and he’s great in the dressing room. And he’s fresh.
DF – Glad you see it my way old boy. Big future for you as captain of this team you know.

LOL. Did you write this (at the other forum)?

[Matt79]

Originally Posted by tooextracool

Thats besides the point though. Whether Geraint scores 200 or 300 runs and takes 10 catches this game is irrelevant. When you make selections, you dont have the benefit of hindsight. Read deserved to get as much of a chance as Jones did, he certainly didnt deserve to get dropped from the test side after doing nothing wrong while Jones had done nothing right. And now unless Jones makes a complete mess of things i doubt we'll see Read in the side this series or perhaps ever.

What the? A decision to drop a player can't be justified, even if the player you replace them with does well? It was harsh on Read but its a reasonable speculation to say that he wouldn't have done as well as Jones has - makes it a quite good selection by Fletcher I'd have said, given as you say he didn't have the benefit of hindsight, just his knowledge of the two players involved.

[tooextracool]

Originally Posted by Matt79

What the? A decision to drop a player can't be justified, even if the player you replace them with does well? It was harsh on Read but its a reasonable speculation to say that he wouldn't have done as well as Jones has - makes it a quite good selection by Fletcher I'd have said, given as you say he didn't have the benefit of hindsight, just his knowledge of the two players involved.

By quite as well as Jones has, you mean average 26 then?
Look you dont just drop players for no reason, Read had done nothing to justify being dropped and Jones had done nothing to justify his selection. At the end of the day, much like at school everyone deserves to be given exactly the same treatment. If Jones got 2 years to display his prowess then Read deserves to at least fail before being dropped.
A decision is only justified when you have enough reasons to make it in the first place, not by what gets accomplished by making the decision.

[steds]

Shaun Udal. The prosecution rests its case.