Ponting faces Ashes ban

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Originally Posted by Clapo

Beg to differ there...but thats another topic...

Well do tell. He's been one of the most successful captains for New Zealand (not sure where he stands all-time for them) and has turned an average side into one that competes with the best. Fleming has been inspirational and in recent times, has led from the front with the bat. Not sure how anyone can fault him a claim as a "good" captain. I never even called him great.

[Johnners]

IMO he's only a mediocre captain.

In 75 tests as captain Fleming has only won 10 away from the greentops of NZ, 4 of which were against Zimbabwe and 2 against Bangladesh.

Home and away he's never beaten Australia in Test matches, Pakistan only once, England 3 times and India twice (on pitches that were a disgrace in the latter instance), meaning he's only won six matches of note out of 75.

A man of his capabilities with the bat should also have a much better conversion ratio from 50's to 100's. He has just 9 Centuries, from 50 scores over 50.

I've no doubt he is 1 of NZ's greatest...but IMO his captaincy isn't as good as it's made out to be. Each to their own though

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Originally Posted by Clapo

IMO he's only a mediocre captain.

In 75 tests as captain Fleming has only won 10 away from the greentops of NZ, 4 of which were against Zimbabwe and 2 against Bangladesh.

Home and away he's never beaten Australia in Test matches, Pakistan only once, England 3 times and India twice (on pitches that were a disgrace in the latter instance), meaning he's only won six matches of note out of 75.

A man of his capabilities with the bat should also have a much better conversion ratio from 50's to 100's. He has just 9 Centuries, from 50 scores over 50.

I've no doubt he is 1 of NZ's greatest...but IMO his captaincy isn't as good as it's made out to be. Each to their own though

Few teams have had success against Australia in recent years.

Aside from that, your stats are horribly portrayed. Consider that Fleming has captained New Zealand 42 times away from home. Yes, only 10 wins, but also 16 drawn results and 16 losses. That's not as bad a record as you seem to believe, given that these are matches away from home.

You can't compare him to the likes of Clive Lloyd, Steve Waugh etc. because these are people with great teams behind them, so obviously their records would be better. Fleming hasn't had a great team behind him, and yet he's led them well enough to keep them in the upper half of Test cricket.

EDIT: Underachieving with the bat should not count against his captaincy rating.

[Johnners]

Originally Posted by Mr Mxyzptlk

Few teams have had success against Australia in recent years.

Aside from that, your stats are horribly portrayed. Consider that Fleming has captained New Zealand 42 times away from home. Yes, only 10 wins, but also 16 drawn results and 16 losses. That's not as bad a record as you seem to believe, given that these are matches away from home.

You can't compare him to the likes of Clive Lloyd, Steve Waugh etc. because these are people with great teams behind them, so obviously their records would be better. Fleming hasn't had a great team behind him, and yet he's led them well enough to keep them in the upper half of Test cricket.

EDIT: Underachieving with the bat should not count against his captaincy rating.

Good Point

I will admit that i hadn't taken much notice the amount of draws in there away games, so i suppose in a fashion i may have underrated him. Even so, i felt that with players such as Vettori, Richardson(before retirement) ,Cairns(also) Before retirement), Bond, Astle & Oram NZ should've been able to make a better fist of matches where they have just "played well".

[Mister Wright]

Originally Posted by Clapo

Good Point

I will admit that i hadn't taken much notice the amount of draws in there away games, so i suppose in a fashion i may have underrated him. Even so, i felt that with players such as Vettori, Richardson(before retirement) ,Cairns(also) Before retirement), Bond, Astle & Oram NZ should've been able to make a better fist of matches where they have just "played well".

You don't need to look at the stats, just watch when he's out in the field and the plans he implements with his bowlers. While not always successful due to players inabilities he at least is doing positive things as a captain.

[tooextracool]

alot of people claim that Fleming has in the last few years let Bracewell lead him instead of making his own decisions and that has affected his captaincy in recent years.
As far as ponting is concerned, he has always been an idiot in my book and him continuing to act like an idiot hardly surprises me.

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Originally Posted by Clapo

I will admit that i hadn't taken much notice the amount of draws in there away games, so i suppose in a fashion i may have underrated him. Even so, i felt that with players such as Vettori, Richardson(before retirement) ,Cairns(also) Before retirement), Bond, Astle & Oram NZ should've been able to make a better fist of matches where they have just "played well".

True, there's some talent there, but those are all still (bar Bond) working class cricketers IMO. In that they had to rely a lot more on guts and hard work than natural talent to be successful.

Also, Vettori has been a huge underachiever for most of his career and Bond has been injured for most of his career. It's not as though all five of those players played many (if any) Tests together.

[Johnners]

Originally Posted by Mr Mxyzptlk

True, there's some talent there, but those are all still (bar Bond) working class cricketers IMO. In that they had to rely a lot more on guts and hard work than natural talent to be successful.

Also, Vettori has been a huge underachiever for most of his career and Bond has been injured for most of his career. It's not as though all five of those players played many (if any) Tests together.

In Vettorio's case he bowls a little to defensivley IMO. It always seems as if he's bowling to stop runs, and not take wickets (much along the same lines as Boje for SA). If he took a bit more of an aggressive approach he'd be far more dangerous.

I think that Underacheiving may the case for a few of NZ players apart from Vettori though. Oram showed what he was capable of when They toured over here in 04, he was easily their best bat, and their Best Quick.

Fleming, as i've already mentioned has underachieved with the Bat, and Astle doesn't seem to apply himself Often enough, he's got the ability, yet he seems to wander.

Ah well, as long as Australia continues to beat them i don't mind at all

[age_master]

Originally Posted by Mister Wright

He deserves it, if he does it again.

Should be sacked as captain if he gets suspended. He should be setting the example.

[Craig]

Originally Posted by Clapo

In Vettorio's case he bowls a little to defensivley IMO. It always seems as if he's bowling to stop runs, and not take wickets (much along the same lines as Boje for SA). If he took a bit more of an aggressive approach he'd be far more dangerous.

I think that Underacheiving may the case for a few of NZ players apart from Vettori though. Oram showed what he was capable of when They toured over here in 04, he was easily their best bat, and their Best Quick.

Fleming, as i've already mentioned has underachieved with the Bat, and Astle doesn't seem to apply himself Often enough, he's got the ability, yet he seems to wander.

Ah well, as long as Australia continues to beat them i don't mind at all

I thought the same would apply to Craig McMillan.

[Johnners]

Originally Posted by Craig

I thought the same would apply to Craig McMillan.

Good point...forgot about him...which i suppose is a testament to his ability to underachieve!!!

[Jono]

Poor Ponting, he's had it rough as captain hasn't he? He sometimes has to deal with not having both McGrath AND Warne together. Forget that other teams would kill for just one of those guys. Forget that other teams would love a ODI batting line-up including Symonds, Clarke, Gilly, Hussey with players such as Martyn, Hayden and Haddin as reserves/fringe players. What about having the greatest opening partnership in tests? Most destructive keeper batsman ever? Hussey walking in his test team and owning? Its just all too tough.

He whinges when he wins, he whinges when he loses, I just don't get it. His behaviour when the opposition are doing well wehen batting is ridiculous,

[Mister Wright]

Originally Posted by Jono

Poor Ponting, he's had it rough as captain hasn't he? He sometimes has to deal with not having both McGrath AND Warne together. Forget that other teams would kill for just one of those guys. Forget that other teams would love a ODI batting line-up including Symonds, Clarke, Gilly, Hussey with players such as Martyn, Hayden and Haddin as reserves/fringe players. What about having the greatest opening partnership in tests? Most destructive keeper batsman ever? Hussey walking in his test team and owning? Its just all too tough.

He whinges when he wins, he whinges when he loses, I just don't get it. His behaviour when the opposition are doing well wehen batting is ridiculous,

Top post.

Imagine if he had of played last night, he could have been banned earlier than we all thought.

[age_master]

Originally Posted by Jono

Poor Ponting, he's had it rough as captain hasn't he? He sometimes has to deal with not having both McGrath AND Warne together. Forget that other teams would kill for just one of those guys. Forget that other teams would love a ODI batting line-up including Symonds, Clarke, Gilly, Hussey with players such as Martyn, Hayden and Haddin as reserves/fringe players. What about having the greatest opening partnership in tests? Most destructive keeper batsman ever? Hussey walking in his test team and owning? Its just all too tough.

He whinges when he wins, he whinges when he loses, I just don't get it. His behaviour when the opposition are doing well wehen batting is ridiculous,

excellent post

[luffy]

While i like Ponting as a player i HATE him as a person. He needs to calm down. If he does something again he shuld get a ban he needs it.