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England cannot win without Vaughan leading

Mister Wright

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
As good a player as Flintoff is becoming, I don't think England can win the Ashes with him as leader. Whether he's just not up to captaining, or it hinders his performances, I'm not sure, but the England team look much more competitive and ruthless with Vaughan at the helm. Unless Vaughan is leading England against Australia in November Australia will regain the Ashes.
 

GIMH

Norwood's on Fire
We could do with Vaughan scoring like he did last time he played in Australia as well
 

howardj

International Coach
GeraintIsMyHero said:
We could do with Vaughan scoring like he did last time he played in Australia as well
That's going to be just as - if not more - important than his captaincy. They really need him to bankroll the England innings, and - like they did last year - require Australia to score 400 just to get on level terms in the first innings.
 

age_master

Hall of Fame Member
i reakon England can win without Vaughan, but i dont think they can without Flintoff and (Simon) Jones. If those 2 dont bowl well Australia will score too many runs.
 

luckyeddie

Cricket Web Staff Member
age_master said:
i reakon England can win without Vaughan, but i dont think they can without Flintoff and (Simon) Jones. If those 2 dont bowl well Australia will score too many runs.

Simon Jones will not be there.
 

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
With all due respect, England are not going to win the series in Australia, Period. It doesn't matter who goes and who stays.
 

Mr Mxyzptlk

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Sanz said:
With all due respect, England are not going to win the series in Australia, Period. It doesn't matter who goes and who stays.
Granted, we've all heard that before.
 

roseboy64

Cricket Web Content Updater
Sanz said:
With all due respect, England are not going to win the series in Australia, Period. It doesn't matter who goes and who stays.
Hmm....Flintoff basically won the Ashes last time around and Vaughan's captaincy was superb with his bowler rotation and field settings and use of substitute fielders. :laugh:
 

luckyeddie

Cricket Web Staff Member
cricketboy29 said:
Whilst I'm rooting for England in the Ashes, I really don't see them winning them back again.
Don't need to win them back - we need a draw to retain them.

(see? It sounds really easy, and just slips off the keyboard)
 

open365

International Vice-Captain
Vaughan isn't that important to the England side, he isn't half the player he once was and the reason we have looked a bit crap without him as captain is because his absence has also coincided with the abscence of a lot of our other top players.
 

Mister Wright

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
open365 said:
Vaughan isn't that important to the England side, he isn't half the player he once was and the reason we have looked a bit crap without him as captain is because his absence has also coincided with the abscence of a lot of our other top players.
You under-rate his impact on the English side. He is a great leader and motivator and besides that he is a fantastic batsman that can change a game in a session. If he doesn't play England can't win the Ashes. He plays, they're a big chance. It's as simple as that.
 

luckyeddie

Cricket Web Staff Member
open365 said:
Vaughan isn't that important to the England side, he isn't half the player he once was and the reason we have looked a bit crap without him as captain is because his absence has also coincided with the abscence of a lot of our other top players.
He is the 'brains behind the outfit' - the best captain I've seen for England since Brearley.

People underestimated Brearley's contribution too. People are idiots.
 

UncleTheOne

U19 Captain
Mister Wright said:
You under-rate his impact on the English side. He is a great leader and motivator and besides that he is a fantastic batsman that can change a game in a session. If he doesn't play England can't win the Ashes. He plays, they're a big chance. It's as simple as that.
Great post. Although he hasn't hit the heights of his 2002-2003 period with the bat he can still destroy bowling attacks when things go right. More important to the team than Flintoff, and one of England's finest ever captains.
 

Mr Mxyzptlk

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UncleTheOne said:
More important to the team than Flintoff, and one of England's finest ever captains.
I disagree.

In Flintoff England have one of the best bowlers in the world. And his batting gives the option of playing 3 seamers and a spinner or 4 seamers. The flexibility which Flintoff allows the team is crucial to a winning England team.

Michael Vaughan is a fine captain, but I think an England team with Flintoff and without Vaughan is more likely to win than an England team with Vaughan and without Flintoff.
 

Mister Wright

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Mr Mxyzptlk said:
I disagree.

In Flintoff England have one of the best bowlers in the world. And his batting gives the option of playing 3 seamers and a spinner or 4 seamers. The flexibility which Flintoff allows the team is crucial to a winning England team.

Michael Vaughan is a fine captain, but I think an England team with Flintoff and without Vaughan is more likely to win than an England team with Vaughan and without Flintoff.
But Flintoff isn't the same player when he is captain of the side. Vaughan is a classy batsman and their batting hasn't had the same consistency since he's been injured. England, of course would want to have both playing, but I'd take Vaughan's leadership and batting prowess over Flintoff if I had to choose between the two.
 

armchairumpire

U19 Cricketer
luckyeddie said:
He is the 'brains behind the outfit' - the best captain I've seen for England since Brearley.

People underestimated Brearley's contribution too. People are idiots.
Agree Agree - multiply by the power 10!
 

tooextracool

International Coach
Mister Wright said:
You under-rate his impact on the English side. He is a great leader and motivator and besides that he is a fantastic batsman that can change a game in a session. If he doesn't play England can't win the Ashes. He plays, they're a big chance. It's as simple as that.
Granted Vaughan is a great captain, but Tresco can do the job just as effectively if given the chance. Even during the Ashes series in 2005, tresco was responsible(or at least involved in) for a large number of decisions that were made. Unfortunately the selectors seem to think that Flintoff and Strauss are better options.
 

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