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Thread: DIZZY - will he be dropped?

  1. #91
    Eyes not spreadsheets marc71178's Avatar
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    Gives a different potential excuse I guess!

    Bangladesh was because they're knackered.
    The Ashes they'll be underdone!

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  2. #92
    Hall of Fame Member FaaipDeOiad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marc71178
    Gives a different potential excuse I guess!

    Bangladesh was because they're knackered.
    The Ashes they'll be underdone!

    That'll be the excuse for losing the first test, after Australia clinch the series 4-1.
    I know a place where a royal flush
    Can never beat a pair

  3. #93
    Eyes not spreadsheets marc71178's Avatar
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    LOL - England will blame exhaustion on the 4 defeats, as well as Vaughan having a brain transplant and putting Australia into bat and Simon Jones tripping a ball which sends him headlong into Freddie Flintoff breaking Freddie's leg.

  4. #94
    Hall of Fame Member luckyeddie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marc71178
    LOL - England will blame exhaustion on the 4 defeats, as well as Vaughan having a brain transplant and putting Australia into bat and Simon Jones tripping a ball which sends him headlong into Freddie Flintoff breaking Freddie's leg.
    Richard will claim that we didn't pick Hick, Ramprakash, Gough, DeFreitas, Cork, Lamb, Russell, Gooch, Hussain and a couple others
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  5. #95
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FaaipDeOiad
    Kasprowicz played on the same bowler friendly wickets as Clark and Lee in South Africa and averaged nearly 50, while Lee and Clark averaged in the teens. Clark, however good his start, has only played three good tests, while Lee has been very good for three series in a row. Incidentally, since you place so much significance on it, Lee's first class bowling average is significantly better than Clark's.

    Lee is comfortably the second best pace bowler in Australia right now. Gillespie might be better if he returns to his best, but there's certainly no guarantee that he will, while Kasprowicz is obviously well past his best, and Clark has yet to bowl well on a flat pitch.
    Gillespie and Clark both have far more raw-materials to use than Lee.
    I couldn't really give flying **** if Kasprowicz bowled crap in SA - anyone who thinks he's to date achieved less in his Test career than Lee has is a dunce of the highest order.
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  6. #96
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luckyeddie
    Richard will claim that we didn't pick Hick, Ramprakash, Gough, DeFreitas, Cork, Lamb, Russell, Gooch, Hussain and a couple others
    Will I?

  7. #97
    Hall of Fame Member FaaipDeOiad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard
    Gillespie and Clark both have far more raw-materials to use than Lee.
    I couldn't really give flying **** if Kasprowicz bowled crap in SA - anyone who thinks he's to date achieved less in his career than Lee has is a dunce of the highest order.
    Depends what you mean by "achieved". Lee has twice as many test wickets and runs, and a better average in test cricket. He's had a positive influence on more test matches and more test series. In ODI cricket it's no contest whatsoever.

    For instance, Kasprowicz has only taken ten wickets in a series twice, while Lee has done it 11 times. Lee has 7 five wicket hauls, while Kasprowicz has 4. Lee has a better average and strike rate both home and away. While Kasprowicz has far more first class wickets, his average in domestic first class cricket is 25.66 compared to Lee's 22.02. I could go on, really. You could say Kasprowicz has achieved less due to less opportunities, but he certainly hasn't had a more successful career than Lee.

  8. #98
    U19 Cricketer sqwerty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FaaipDeOiad
    Depends what you mean by "achieved". Lee has twice as many test wickets and runs, and a better average in test cricket. He's had a positive influence on more test matches and more test series. In ODI cricket it's no contest whatsoever.

    For instance, Kasprowicz has only taken ten wickets in a series twice, while Lee has done it 11 times. Lee has 7 five wicket hauls, while Kasprowicz has 4. Lee has a better average and strike rate both home and away. While Kasprowicz has far more first class wickets, his average in domestic first class cricket is 25.66 compared to Lee's 22.02. I could go on, really. You could say Kasprowicz has achieved less due to less opportunities, but he certainly hasn't had a more successful career than Lee.
    Hard to argue with that.

  9. #99
    Banned sideshowtim's Avatar
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    Lee is also much better as a strike bowler than Kasper.

  10. #100
    Eyes not spreadsheets marc71178's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FaaipDeOiad
    Depends what you mean by "achieved". Lee has twice as many test wickets and runs, and a better average in test cricket. He's had a positive influence on more test matches and more test series. In ODI cricket it's no contest whatsoever.

    For instance, Kasprowicz has only taken ten wickets in a series twice, while Lee has done it 11 times. Lee has 7 five wicket hauls, while Kasprowicz has 4. Lee has a better average and strike rate both home and away. While Kasprowicz has far more first class wickets, his average in domestic first class cricket is 25.66 compared to Lee's 22.02. I could go on, really. You could say Kasprowicz has achieved less due to less opportunities, but he certainly hasn't had a more successful career than Lee.
    You're clearly a dunce of highest order

  11. #101
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FaaipDeOiad
    Depends what you mean by "achieved". Lee has twice as many test wickets and runs, and a better average in test cricket. He's had a positive influence on more test matches and more test series. In ODI cricket it's no contest whatsoever.

    For instance, Kasprowicz has only taken ten wickets in a series twice, while Lee has done it 11 times. Lee has 7 five wicket hauls, while Kasprowicz has 4. Lee has a better average and strike rate both home and away. While Kasprowicz has far more first class wickets, his average in domestic first class cricket is 25.66 compared to Lee's 22.02. I could go on, really. You could say Kasprowicz has achieved less due to less opportunities, but he certainly hasn't had a more successful career than Lee.
    The sum-total of Lee's achievements before the most recent season were occasionally being slightly less rubbish than he usually was.
    Only last season was Lee credible as close to a Test-class bowler. Before then he was one of the worst players of the modern era to play 38 Tests, if not the worst.
    So, in short, Lee has achieved one season of good performances in Tests. The "T" word which I should have mentioned and didn't.
    Kasprowicz has achieved considerably more than that, even despite getting far less opportunities than most bowlers of his talent have.

  12. #102
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sideshowtim
    Lee is also much better as a strike bowler than Kasper.
    What, Lee's better at being a bowler who's best used in short spells than Kasprowicz?
    What a phenominal achievement.

  13. #103
    Hall of Fame Member FaaipDeOiad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard
    The sum-total of Lee's achievements before the most recent season were occasionally being slightly less rubbish than he usually was.
    Only last season was Lee credible as close to a Test-class bowler. Before then he was one of the worst players of the modern era to play 38 Tests, if not the worst.
    So, in short, Lee has achieved one season of good performances in Tests. The "T" word which I should have mentioned and didn't.
    Kasprowicz has achieved considerably more than that, even despite getting far less opportunities than most bowlers of his talent have.
    Admittedly, some of the things I mentioned would not have been true before this season, like Lee having the better average both home and away (though it probably would have been better away anyway), but the fact that Lee had more wickets and a comparable average, and that he had impacted on more series and tests than Kasprowicz was still true.

    If you're going to measure "success" in some way other than just average, wickets per match and strike rate, (and in two of those areas Lee led, even before this summer), it would have to be the number of games and series a player plays a significant role in. And Kasprowicz throughout his career has been largely a support bowler, with a couple of exceptions. This is shown by the fact that in the 17 test series he has participated in, he has only taken 10+ wickets twice, in the 1997 Ashes and the 03/04 series in Sri Lanka. In fact, over his whole career Kasprowicz averages less than three wickets per test, which is a pretty small number for a guy with 38 test matches.

    Lee averages almost 4 wickets a test, and has 10+ wickets in 11 out of 19 series. And despite the fact that his average isn't the best, his strike rate of 52.60 shows that he's been a consistent wicket taking threat, given that it is better than the likes of Gillespie have managed. Lee's certainly not been one of the best bowlers around throughout his career, at least not until the last few months, but he's never been as dismally poor as you make out. Even through the poorest patches of his career he was still threatening and still took wickets, even whilst getting hammered. Kasprowicz is a fine bowler in many ways, but he certainly hasn't been a consistent threat at test level. He has varied between being a good to a poor support bowler, but his wicket taking ability at test level has generally been questionable, despite the odd fine performance. After Lee's recent achievements in test cricket, there is no question about who the more accomplished performer at test level is. Kasprowicz has plenty of valid excuses for his average record, and Lee has certainly been given more leeway by the selectors for a number of reasons, but Lee has also been the more successful bowler.

    And incidentally, the suggestion that Lee is the worst player to play 38 tests in the modern era is absurd. He isn't even the worst player to play 38 tests for Australia in the modern era, with the likes of Greg Blewett around, and the suggestion that Lee is worse than the likes of Mark Ramprakash, Grant Flower, Habibul Bashar or Mervyn Dillon is ludicrous. Indeed, even Ashley Giles.

  14. #104
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FaaipDeOiad
    Admittedly, some of the things I mentioned would not have been true before this season, like Lee having the better average both home and away (though it probably would have been better away anyway), but the fact that Lee had more wickets and a comparable average, and that he had impacted on more series and tests than Kasprowicz was still true.

    If you're going to measure "success" in some way other than just average, wickets per match and strike rate, (and in two of those areas Lee led, even before this summer), it would have to be the number of games and series a player plays a significant role in. And Kasprowicz throughout his career has been largely a support bowler, with a couple of exceptions. This is shown by the fact that in the 17 test series he has participated in, he has only taken 10+ wickets twice, in the 1997 Ashes and the 03/04 series in Sri Lanka. In fact, over his whole career Kasprowicz averages less than three wickets per test, which is a pretty small number for a guy with 38 test matches.

    Lee averages almost 4 wickets a test, and has 10+ wickets in 11 out of 19 series. And despite the fact that his average isn't the best, his strike rate of 52.60 shows that he's been a consistent wicket taking threat, given that it is better than the likes of Gillespie have managed. Lee's certainly not been one of the best bowlers around throughout his career, at least not until the last few months, but he's never been as dismally poor as you make out. Even through the poorest patches of his career he was still threatening and still took wickets, even whilst getting hammered. Kasprowicz is a fine bowler in many ways, but he certainly hasn't been a consistent threat at test level. He has varied between being a good to a poor support bowler, but his wicket taking ability at test level has generally been questionable, despite the odd fine performance. After Lee's recent achievements in test cricket, there is no question about who the more accomplished performer at test level is. Kasprowicz has plenty of valid excuses for his average record, and Lee has certainly been given more leeway by the selectors for a number of reasons, but Lee has also been the more successful bowler.
    If Kasprowicz has always been a support-bowler (and he has, except in India in 1997\98), Lee certainly always was before 2005\06.
    Nor was Lee a "consistent wicket-taking threat" between 2001 and 2005 - his SR in that time was a distinctly average 62. Yes, he did have a sensational SR in 1999\2000 and 2000\01, but that was clearly a different period.
    Bearing in mind his extraordinarily limited opportunities, I'd say Kasprowicz has achieved a remarkable amount in Tests. Given the stupid amount of slack cut to Lee, I'd say he's achieved very little in comparison.
    And incidentally, the suggestion that Lee is the worst player to play 38 tests in the modern era is absurd. He isn't even the worst player to play 38 tests for Australia in the modern era, with the likes of Greg Blewett around, and the suggestion that Lee is worse than the likes of Mark Ramprakash, Grant Flower, Habibul Bashar or Mervyn Dillon is ludicrous. Indeed, even Ashley Giles.
    Sorry, what? Habibul Bashar has played them for Bangladesh!!!! Hence I don't credit the games as Tests!!!!
    Lee before the most recent season was no better than Mervyn Dillon.
    Nor can he be slightly compared with batsmen like Blewett, Ramprakash and Grant Flower.

  15. #105
    Hall of Fame Member luckyeddie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard
    Sorry, what? Habibul Bashar has played them for Bangladesh!!!! Hence I don't credit the games as Tests!!!!
    Lee before the most recent season was no better than Mervyn Dillon.
    Nor can he be slightly compared with batsmen like Blewett, Ramprakash and Grant Flower.
    So if they had beaten Australia, it wouldn't have counted in your eyes, I suppose?

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