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Thread: Flintoff and Warne in the Ashes...

  1. #16
    International Captain LongHopCassidy's Avatar
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    Actually, it's two - you need an O instead of an E for 'revolution'.
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  2. #17
    Hall of Fame Member luckyeddie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LongHopCassidy
    Actually, it's two - you need an O instead of an E for 'revolution'.
    Git

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  3. #18
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luckyeddie
    Just one will do.

    Revelation.

    Change one letter and you'll realise why - for more than one reason
    Quite true - 1993 was hailed as the revival of wristspin, but... what about Abdul Qadir?
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  4. #19
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Francis
    And then there's people who think, since the Ashes and since Warne got 96 wickets in a calendar year, he is bowling better than ever. People like Ricky Ponting and Richie Benaud. Warne himself thinks he's bowling as good as he ever has (in 2005).
    I'm sure - but Warne doesn't face himself and Ponting only ever faces him in the nets.
    I can't recall Richie suggesting he was bowling better now or even as well as in the 1992\93-1997\98 period, but if he did... well, there must be something in it.
    I don't, however, attach anything to the fact that he's taken more wickets in the calender-year last year than ever before. That says far more about the weakness of the rest of Australia's attack in 2005 and the fact that he bowled more overs in 2005 than any other year apart from 1993.
    Doesn't just make him look good, it actually makes him good. I personally think Warne wouldn't have gotten 40 wickets if he had a full strength bowling line-up performing like they can. Although if you ask C_C, it's impossible to help your figures by bowling longer without pressure from the other end. I don't buy that. But still, 40 wickets is incredible.
    Not really - Warne's bowling is equal whatever. It's just there's never been a time before when he's been part of such a weak attack and team as a whole. His virtuoso performance IMO made people think he'd bowled virtually beyond anything ever done, when he merely bowled extremely well.
    Don't recall ever calling it poor.
    Your words were "And his average was poor".
    Fair point. I disagree. Warne got wickets in 2005 not because England tried playing him more aggressively. The crowds were cheering every ball an Englishmen defensively played against him. Warne just asked more questions of the batsmen. To help your case I will add that, against common thought, England had good players of spin in 1993 like Gatting, Hick and Gooch who could defend their wicket better.
    I hardly see how the fact that England had good players in 1993 (better than in 2005, certainly - though Gatting by 1993 was long since past his best) helps the case for him bowling better in 2005? In 2005 England had few if any particularly good players of spin. Trescothick's ability against spin is well below most people's perception of it (Warne got him in each of the last 3 innings); Strauss and Bell ain't the best players of spin in The World; Vaughan was dreadful against all bowlers so rarely got the chance to even face him; Pietersen played him reasonably without playing him exceptionally; Flintoff has never been The World's best player of spin and never will be; Jones rarely faced him and on 1 of the occasions he did had 1 of his customary rushes-of-blood.
    I maintain that England played him far better in 1993 than 2005. They just a) didn't have anywhere near the 2005 attack and b) had a stronger rest-of Austalia's attack to cope with.
    I seriously think if Warne had been played in 1993 as he was in 2005 he'd have got 40 wickets at least. Maybe Warne asked questions of the batsmen in 2005 that he didn't in 1993, but equally it certainly works the other way around too.
    His figures were not better for the entire series in 1994/95. He took his best ever figures of 8-71 at the GABBA, got a hat-trick at the MCG, and had a lacking last three games. In 1993 he was consistent but not striking.
    Err - that's what I said, wasn't it...?
    Guys who carry teams and pad up wickets often strike much much higher when they're getting more wickets.
    Err... eh?
    Don't understand.


  5. #20
    State Vice-Captain Francis's Avatar
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    I wrote my responses to the quote above but deleted them before posting them because I want to keep my argument focused. If anything I said confused you, explaining to make sense of it just takes focus off the facts:

    Warne in the 1993 Ashes striked in the 70s.

    Warne in the 2005 Ashes striked below 38.

    Warne in the 1993 Ashes has a bowling average around 25.

    Warne in the 2005 Ashes had a bowling average below 20.

    Warne in 1993 had little help. Criag McDermott and maybe Tim May... neither steal many wickets.

    Warne in 2005 had little help. He would've gotten more wickets at Lords without McGrath.


    Now you can talk about competition, standards, pitches, help you had etc. You can talk about whatever you like, but if your getting wickets almost twice as quickly in a series you are ridiculous, you are so far ahead of what you did before that nothing else matters. That's Warne. So you can talk about anything that happened, but Warne was so much more effective in 2005 that any variables don't come close. Is it irrational to think that just maybe, if somebody is getting wickets twice as quick as before that it's not worth considering variables. It's not like Craig McDermott stole 30 wickets off him in 1993.

    Again, Warne made more of a psychological impact in 1993 and changed perceptions of spin.

    Warne was simply more effective in 2005... by a great great margin of striking.

  6. #21
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    More effective, obviously, but the reasons for him being more effective were multiple.
    While the 1993 attack mightn't have been strong after McDermott went home early, it was beyond question stronger than the attack of 2005. Even Tim May, a relatively nondescript bowler most of his career, had his moments. You're forgetting Merv Hughes, too.
    And there's simply no doubt about the fact that England hopelessly misjudged their approach in 2005. While they still won the series, countless times they got themselves out to Warne. This didn't happen in 1993 - as you say, most of the time they were seeking to shut-down the Warne end full-stop. Currently, the flavour-of-the-month is attack, and that was the strategy they chose to use this time. But it was less effective, because Warne got more wickets at a much, much better strike-rate.
    I reckon Warne bowled as well in 2005 as he did in 2001 - both times he was superb. But in 2001 he had McGrath for every game and in the first 3 a firing Gillespie.
    Like I say - capturing the imagination is a lot, and it made a huge impact in both 1993 and 2005.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard
    More effective, obviously, but the reasons for him being more effective were multiple.
    While the 1993 attack mightn't have been strong after McDermott went home early, it was beyond question stronger than the attack of 2005. Even Tim May, a relatively nondescript bowler most of his career, had his moments.


    You are an idiot Richard....or should I call you D1ck. Any bowler, even a relatively nondescript bowler, will have his moments when playing the mentally soft English.
    Roy (Symonds) being the latest example.

    You say the 93 attack was beyond question a stronger attack. I beg to differ. McGrath is better then McDermott or Hughes ever were, Lee is as good or better then Reiffel was, and Tim May, well, he's like Giles, nothing to write home about, just the best of a bad bunch. So what are you babbling on about?

    In 93 Warne was new and unexpected. By 05, he'd been video taped and studied, you'd faced him and knew what to expect, you guys even invented a legspin bowling machine to practice with. Yet...well, the figures speak for themselves, regardless of who is bowling at the other end.
    Ture, he doesn't get the rev's on the ball he did pre-operation, but his wicket-taking ability has gotten better, as the stats show.

    And btw, Ponting DOES face Warne in the domestic competition, not only in the nets.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Francis
    Also try naming a more impacting series than what Flintoff did. Freddie fired at all the right times.
    Take your pick, any of the Bradman tours of England, or at home.

  9. #24
    International Coach PhoenixFire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gottaluvcricket
    Take your pick, any of the Bradman tours of England, or at home.
    I assume you are the new guise of BLE?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Cat View Post
    1) Had double pneumonia as a kid, as did my twin sis. Doctors told my parents to pray that we lived through the night. Dad said **** off, I'm an atheist, you ****s better save my kids, etc. Then prayed anyway.

  10. #25
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    Dunno what you mean, just new to the site.

  11. #26
    International Coach PhoenixFire's Avatar
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    Ahem.

    I'll believe you for now.

  12. #27
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    What are you on about fool? Believe what u want man, I don't care.

  13. #28
    International Coach PhoenixFire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gottaluvcricket
    What are you on about fool? Believe what u want man, I don't care.
    I repeat.

    I'll believe you for now.

  14. #29
    You'll Never Walk Alone Nate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andyc
    Oh sorry mate, guess I didn't explain myself before when I told you about it. As Scaly said, you have to remove the dots. I included them because otherwise I would have just written in a quote
    Jesus brings life eternal

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