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Thread: Where do we go now?

  1. #31
    Eyes not spreadsheets marc71178's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theegyptian View Post
    watching him play, reading stuff about him in interviews by coaches . You think he'd be bowling at the death if he didn't want to earlier in his career - generally in english cricket it's left to the overseas player or the senior player.
    Well doesn't he come with this tag of "specialist death bowler"? Because if that's his speciality and he's pure unadulterated ****e at it, it means he's not good enough to be in the team.
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  2. #32
    State Captain theegyptian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marc71178 View Post
    Well doesn't he come with this tag of "specialist death bowler"? Because if that's his speciality and he's pure unadulterated ****e at it, it means he's not good enough to be in the team.
    it;s all well and good as always saying he's **** and not good enough but again you haven't offered a replacement.

  3. #33
    Global Moderator vic_orthdox's Avatar
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    Interested to see what Dernbach's RR in the last five overs is compared to tournament average.

  4. #34
    Eyes not spreadsheets marc71178's Avatar
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    If we're playing 3 seamers then Bresnan, Broad, Finn is a far better combination - the only game England won against non-minnows, and look who wasn't playing?

    Look into his T20I career with any detail and it's extremely noticeable that there's a strong correlation between him getting good figures and the opposition being into the lower order at the death. In fact I'd say he's only once performed when that hasn't been the situation.


  5. #35
    Hall of Fame Member grecian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theegyptian View Post
    it;s all well and good as always saying he's **** and not good enough but again you haven't offered a replacement.

    TBF, we don't scout County cricket for bowlers. If Dernbach is kept on being picked then other's aren't going to get a chance. It maybe someone like Liddle, who is a specialist and crap at first class. Topley, Ashraf, Roland-Jones, Saxleby or Pyrah all had decent seasons last year in t20.

    May all be rubbish, but we know Jade is, so won't be costing us.
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  6. #36
    State Captain theegyptian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by L Trumper View Post
    This idea that only some players really have a passion others not as much is a narrative bull**** perpetuated by media. ****s are intl cricketers, all of them are passionate about the game otherwise they wouldn't be there.
    compare broad or dernbach to bopara or harmison. Bopara or Harmison looked liked they rather be elsewhere most of the time when playing and when the team was doing badly they're always passive and not wanting to get involved in the action.

    Teams need positive, aggresive, combative personalities. Anybody can prosper when they're in form. The real test of players is when they're not. Bopara, Harmison seemed to have mental brakedowns when out of form. Mentally resillient players like Cook or Broad battled through and broke out the other end better players.

    Yes it's a judgement i've made and it may be wrong but I think Dernbach has the correct personality traits to prosper. He also has the basic physical characteristics. It's not like he's 5'9'' and bowling 80mph with a few decent slower balls but tries hard.

    Yes he's not the finished article and he does stupid stuff but you compare him to Bresnan or Woakes. There's no chance these guys are going to be world class international ODI/T20 bowlers. Their potential career peaks are sufficiently less than that of Dernbach and even at the moment they are worse bowlers than Dernbach

  7. #37
    State Captain theegyptian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grecian View Post
    TBF, we don't scout County cricket for bowlers. If Dernbach is kept on being picked then other's aren't going to get a chance. It maybe someone like Liddle, who is a specialist and crap at first class. Topley, Ashraf, Roland-Jones, Saxleby or Pyrah all had decent seasons last year in t20.

    May all be rubbish, but we know Jade is, so won't be costing us.
    haha.

  8. #38
    Global Moderator vic_orthdox's Avatar
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    For the record, went through and looked at all games between non-minnows, and looked at all the run-rates for innings where the batsmen were likely still going hell to leather all the way through.

    Matches where a team won with more than two overs to spare I discounted.

    The average run rate throughout the tournament so far in the last 5 overs has been 8.96. Dernbach's economy rate in this same time of the game (to be fair, each time he's bowled in this period, he's bowled overs 18 and 20, which may be attacked a bit more than 16 or 17, but still) is 12.33.

    For the record, when Bresnan came in and bowled those same two overs, he went for 21 from his two.

  9. #39
    Eyes not spreadsheets marc71178's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theegyptian View Post
    Yes he's not the finished article and he does stupid stuff but you compare him to Bresnan or Woakes. There's no chance these guys are going to be world class international ODI/T20 bowlers. Their potential career peaks are sufficiently less than that of Dernbach and even at the moment they are worse bowlers than Dernbach
    Worse bowlers who have better career records, interesting.

    T20: Dernbach E/R 8.34 (8.66 in domestic only), Woakes E/R 8.08 (7.99 in domestic), Bresnan E/R 7.36 (7.32 in domestic)

    List A: Dernbach E/R 6.03 (6.08 in domestic), Woakes E/R 5.39 (5.40 in domestic), Bresnan E/R 5.13 (5.00 in domestic)

    In addition, 2 of the 3 can bat...

  10. #40
    State Captain theegyptian's Avatar
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    zzz not as relevant as international stats. All 3 came in to first class cricket at a very young age but dernbach has bowled at the death nearly his whole career. He didn't really ever have a bedding in period like Woakes or Bresnan who would have been third or fourth bowlers. Also he plays at the high scoring Oval as compared to Edgbaston or Headingly. He didn't play for England U-19, his improvement has come later in the career.

    You also conveniently leave out strike rate and average. you can make statistics look what you like. some need context.

  11. #41
    Hall of Fame Member grecian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theegyptian View Post
    haha.
    FFS, what's the point.

  12. #42
    State Captain theegyptian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vic_orthdox View Post
    For the record, went through and looked at all games between non-minnows, and looked at all the run-rates for innings where the batsmen were likely still going hell to leather all the way through.

    Matches where a team won with more than two overs to spare I discounted.

    The average run rate throughout the tournament so far in the last 5 overs has been 8.96. Dernbach's economy rate in this same time of the game (to be fair, each time he's bowled in this period, he's bowled overs 18 and 20, which may be attacked a bit more than 16 or 17, but still) is 12.33.

    For the record, when Bresnan came in and bowled those same two overs, he went for 21 from his two.
    I mean this doesn't surprise me. I always said he was poor. But you compare him to the some of the other bowlers who bowled at the end of innings.I never compared Dernbach with Malinga, Ajmal, Gul, Kallis. These are obviously experienced quality performers. Dernbach is no-where near these guys. As you say some of these statistics are dependent on the innings situation and generally englands opposition always had a few wicket left in hand at the end of the innings.

  13. #43
    Eyes not spreadsheets marc71178's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theegyptian View Post
    zzz not as relevant as international stats. All 3 came in to first class cricket at a very young age but dernbach has bowled at the death nearly his whole career. He didn't really ever have a bedding in period like Woakes or Bresnan who would have been third or fourth bowlers. Also he plays at the high scoring Oval as compared to Edgbaston or Headingly. He didn't play for England U-19, his improvement has come later in the career.

    You also conveniently leave out strike rate and average. you can make statistics look what you like. some need context.
    You can make whatever excuses you like, but he's being selected as a specialist death bowler, but he's **** at that task.

    Oh, and since you asked:

    S/R: Dernbach 20.3 (21.3 in domestic), Woakes 19.9 (19.4 in domestic), Bresnan 22.3 (20.5 in domestic)
    Average: Dernbach 28.27 (30.68 in domestic), Woakes 26.77 (25.87 in domestic), Bresnan 27.31 (24.96 in domestic)

    So in all 3 he's worse and he can't bat for toffee.

  14. #44
    International Captain ankitj's Avatar
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    Hilarious



    Those from outside of India / Pakistan - sorry guys, you will probably not understand the language or the context.
    Last edited by ankitj; 04-10-2012 at 02:55 AM.

  15. #45
    Cricketer Of The Year Turbinator's Avatar
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