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View Poll Results: Does it hollow Englands victory to have so many non-English born players in the team?

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Thread: The Least 'National' World Cup Winning Team

  1. #1
    JJD Heads Athlai's Avatar
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    The Least 'National' World Cup Winning Team

    Out of every team to win the world cup this English team has the most foreign born players.

    A fair few teams have had XI home born players in their international tournament winning teams (WC, Champs Trophy, T20 and the mini world cup):

    West Indies 75, West Indies 79, India 83 (though I may be mixing together some subcontinental places for all Asian teams), Australia 87, Pakistan 91, Sri Lanka, 96, India 07, Pakistan 09, Australia 09

    Teams that had a foreign born player regardless of how long they lived in the country they played for:
    SA 99 Benkenstein and Elworth - Zimbabwe, NZ 00 Twose - England and Styris - Australia
    Australia 03 Symonds - England, WI 04 Browne - England, Aus 06 Symonds again Aus 07 Symonds, England 2010 Lumb, Kieswetter, Pietersen - South Africa, Morgan - Ireland

    What are everyone's thoughts on this? I've heard a fair few arguments either way, namely that it doesn't matter where you are born but where you live now, or who you represented first at a youth national level, or how long they have lived in their host country.

    For me personally it hollows England's victory a bit to have a fair few players in the team that represented South Africa and Ireland at different levels. I'm not trying to tear into England here but get a bit of debate going over where this kind of team make-up may be heading in the future. Besides everyone knows that it was the English bowlers who did most of the match winning in the final.
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    International Coach HeathDavisSpeed's Avatar
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    It's not like England bought these players off the street, or stole them away from the safe clutches of South African sporting academies. Pietersen, Lumb and Morgan were developed, trained and raised by the English sporting system. Kieswetter is a bit different as he played for Yarpie U-19s, but I have no problem with Pietersen, Lumb, Morgan, Strauss or Prior.

    Just sour grapes from other teams that keep bringing this up all the time.
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    6 week ban for trolling?

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    Outsourcing is a good thing I can tell u that

    Kidding. I've no issues with players who didn't get a chance to make it big in their home country. And decided to emigrate, did the hard yards in the county system, satisfied the criteria to become a full national (playing for 3 years?), and then made his appearance. This applies to KP, etc etc.

    But what I have issues is when a player like Morgan who for 20 years of his life played cricket in Ireland suddenly starts playing for England, utilising the loophole that an Associate player need not have the 3 years cooling period. this is quite ridiculous because then Ireland is reduced to just being a talent pool for England, for whom they don't have to spend on (Ireland receives funding from the ICC being Associate nation), and this practise virtually eliminates any chance of Ireland ever becoming a full member, as it's best talent is always employed by England.

    This is something ICC must look at.
    Last edited by Sir Alex; 16-05-2010 at 10:38 PM.


  5. #5
    JJD Heads Athlai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeathDavisSpeed View Post
    It's not like England bought these players off the street, or stole them away from the safe clutches of South African sporting academies. Pietersen, Lumb and Morgan were developed, trained and raised by the English sporting system. Kieswetter is a bit different as he played for Yarpie U-19s, but I have no problem with Pietersen, Lumb, Morgan, Strauss or Prior.

    Just sour grapes from other teams that keep bringing this up all the time.
    Not trying to imply that England are to blame for this but New Zealand have a lot of foreigners as well, this world cup just brought up how many players are from overseas in a pretty legitimate sense.

    NZ have Watling, Elliott and a Wagner who won't be too far from playing. We've always had a few Aussie born players as well, like Styris and Sinclair. I'm just wondering where the ICC should draw the line in the sand between what country you play for.

    Kieswetter played for South Africa's Western Province from 13-18 and represented them in the 06 U/19 WC.
    Lumb played for junior teams in Transvaal and has since then played county cricket since 2000.
    Pietersen played first class cricket in Natal for two seasons before first playing in England where he played in both countries for a while I think. He did play at least 4 years of cricket for English domestic teams before getting his cap.
    Morgan played for Irish U-15,17 and 19s and soon got an Irish cap not long after. Playing English domestic cricket since 06 for Middlesex but having been a product of Irish cricket for a few years before this and a couple years after.

    I reckon Pietersen and Lumb are pretty much non-issues but that Kieswetter and Morgan are open for far more scrutiny. The players themselves an the English team selection should come under no fire as they should both be looking to make the best team, I'm more concerned that with Morgan a highly promising player was taken from Ireland due to the ICC's relaxed rules on associates. Kieswetter is probably just a bit fresh in England for mine but possibly not an issue either.

    It's just strange to see such a large amount of non-national born players. Then theres blokes like Nash who leave Australian cricket because they don't reckon they can get a cap.

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    JJD Heads Athlai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DingDong View Post
    6 week ban for trolling?
    yeah pull your head in athlai

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    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend Top_Cat's Avatar
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    How about Lou Vincent? Played all his under-age rep cricket (up to U/19) and district cricket here but reckon it would have been pretty unfair to stop him playing for NZ.
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    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend Top_Cat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athlai View Post
    It's just strange to see such a large amount of non-national born players. Then theres blokes like Nash who leave Australian cricket because they don't reckon they can get a cap.
    Allan Mullaly too. Played two (?) seasons of Shield cricket, was tipped as a future Aussie Test cricketer, threw it all in to go back to England.

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    JJD Heads Athlai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Cat View Post
    How about Lou Vincent? Played all his under-age rep cricket (up to U/19) and district cricket here but reckon it would have been pretty unfair to stop him playing for NZ.
    Yep Vincent and Twose both definitely came to NZ to play at the highest level.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Athlai View Post
    yeah pull your head in athlai
    Time to change the avatar I guess He's now won a World cup!

    Just realised Morgan played his last ODI for Ireland in April 2009 and made his England debut in the very next month.
    Last edited by Sir Alex; 16-05-2010 at 10:48 PM.

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    Hall of Fame Member Johnners's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Cat View Post
    Allan Mullaly too. Played two (?) seasons of Shield cricket, was tipped as a future Aussie Test cricketer, threw it all in to go back to England.
    Did the Hollioake brothers ever play FC cricket in Australia? (Don't recall them doing so, but could well be wrong..)
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    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend Top_Cat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clapo View Post
    Did the Hollioake brothers ever play FC cricket in Australia? (Don't recall them doing so, but could well be wrong..)
    Was thinking of them too and I don't think they Adam played FC cricket but, without checking, I think he played rep cricket, much like Geraint Jones. Surely Ben, considering he played his first game for England at 19 was too young to have played anything other than grade cricket here?
    Last edited by Top_Cat; 16-05-2010 at 10:51 PM.

  13. #13
    JJD Heads Athlai's Avatar
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    As for the other players Heath mentioned, Strauss moved to England aged 6 and Prior aged 11 so aren't a problem.

    Other players mentioned:

    Jones moved to England aged 22
    The Hollioake bros moved to England aged 12 and 6 but seem to have shifted back and forth fairly often.
    Last edited by Athlai; 16-05-2010 at 10:54 PM.

  14. #14
    Hall of Fame Member Johnners's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Cat View Post
    Was thinking of them too and I don't think they Adam played FC cricket but, without checking, I think he played rep cricket, much like Geraint Jones. Surely Ben, considering he played his first game for England at 19 was too young to have played anything other than grade cricket here?
    Just wiki'd, says they moved to England when Adam was 12/13 so I wouldn't exactly say they started their careers here in Aust.

  15. #15
    International Coach HeathDavisSpeed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athlai View Post
    As for the other players Heath mentioned, Strauss moved to England aged 6 and Prior aged 11 so aren't a problem.
    But they are a problem to some. I have no problem with these guys whatsoever.

    And then, this isn't a new phenomenon - Kepler Wessels, Tony Greig, Basil de Oliveira, Robin Smith, Allan Lamb, Graeme Hick, Andrew Caddick, Alan Mullally, Martin McCague, Craig White. If you've lived in a country long enough to earn a passport for that country, I don't see how you can say it's wrong for them to play for that adoptive country.

    Even Nasser Hussain was born in Madras FFS. Anyone arguing that he isn't a Pom can **** right off.
    Last edited by HeathDavisSpeed; 16-05-2010 at 10:56 PM.

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