View Poll Results: Does it hollow Englands victory to have so many non-English born players in the team?

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  • We wuz robbed

    0 0%
  • A little bit

    0 0%
  • Not really

    10 50.00%
  • Tell him hes dreaming

    4 20.00%
  • GIMH sold his soul for this victory

    6 30.00%
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Thread: The Least 'National' World Cup Winning Team

  1. #31
    International Coach HeathDavisSpeed's Avatar
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    An interesting test to see how many of these guys were "passports of convienience" would be to see whether they "went home" after retiring:

    e.g. Tony Greig - chipped off overseas ASAP
    Robin Smith - stayed with Hampshire, lives down there, helps run day to day operations, helped set up Chase cricket equipment
    Chris Lewis - Firmly in Blighty at Her Majesty's Pleasure etc. etc.

    How many off them return from whence they came? If they stick around in the UK, were they really playing for England out of convienience?
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  2. #32
    Hall of Fame Member Goughy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeathDavisSpeed View Post
    They are all examples used by the England detractors in this sense though. How's about Gavin Hamilton - ruthlessly poached from Scotland?????
    He was. My point about White et al being British born and playing for England despite growing up overseas is that people seldom mention Gordon Greenidge and WI 'poaching' him after he leant the game in England. Myself, Ive no issue with any of it.

    EDIT- The only one that annoys me a little is Amjad Khan but Ill get over it.
    Last edited by Goughy; 16-05-2010 at 10:23 PM.
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  3. #33
    JJD Heads Athlai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeathDavisSpeed View Post
    An interesting test to see how many of these guys were "passports of convienience" would be to see whether they "went home" after retiring:

    e.g. Tony Greig - chipped off overseas ASAP
    Robin Smith - stayed with Hampshire, lives down there, helps run day to day operations, helped set up Chase cricket equipment
    Chris Lewis - Firmly in Blighty at Her Majesty's Pleasure etc. etc.

    How many off them return from whence they came? If they stick around in the UK, were they really playing for England out of convienience?
    Yeah tbh moreso than players who weren't 'developed' by the country they play internationally for is the players who only live in that country and then move immediately back afterward.
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  4. #34
    International Coach HeathDavisSpeed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goughy View Post
    He was. My point about White et al being British born and playing for England despite growing up overseas is that people seldom mention Gordon Greenidge and WI 'poaching' him after he leant the game in England. Myself, Ive no issue with any of it.

    EDIT- The only one that annoys me a little is Amjad Khan but Ill get over it.
    Sorry Goughy, this is an England only problem.


  5. #35
    Hall of Fame Member Goughy's Avatar
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    Regarding moving back to a country, I was thinking on a seperate but related point about what players do when they retire and where they settle.

    Just looking through some very old WI cricket profiles and a number died in the UK. Obviously Larwood, amongst others, moved to Aus, Wally Hammond etc to SA. So I guess my question is, which country do the most players relocate to after retirement? My thought being use place of death being different to country represented.
    Last edited by Goughy; 16-05-2010 at 10:46 PM.

  6. #36
    Englishman BoyBrumby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Alex View Post
    Outsourcing is a good thing I can tell u that

    Kidding. I've no issues with players who didn't get a chance to make it big in their home country. And decided to emigrate, did the hard yards in the county system, satisfied the criteria to become a full national (playing for 3 years?), and then made his appearance. This applies to KP, etc etc.

    But what I have issues is when a player like Morgan who for 20 years of his life played cricket in Ireland suddenly starts playing for England, utilising the loophole that an Associate player need not have the 3 years cooling period. this is quite ridiculous because then Ireland is reduced to just being a talent pool for England, for whom they don't have to spend on (Ireland receives funding from the ICC being Associate nation), and this practise virtually eliminates any chance of Ireland ever becoming a full member, as it's best talent is always employed by England.

    This is something ICC must look at.
    Far from being a "loophole" it's something the associate nations actually lobbied for. If talented assoicate players weren't allowed to switich to test nations immediately once selected they'd have to make themselves unavailable for the 4 year qualification period.

    I don't necessarily feel comfortable we're taking the cream of associate nations (and, in the cases of Joyce and Amjad Khan, quickly disgarding them too) but they are playing in our domestic competition as non-overseas players, but if we were to arbitrarily say we weren't going to pick them based on mildly dodgy conceptions of who is or isn't a "proper" national we'd be doubly hamstringing ourselves. Not only would these players be unavailable, but they're also filling a place that would otherwise be occupied by a "real" pom, however one wishes to define that.
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  7. #37
    Cricketer Of The Year four_or_six's Avatar
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    Doesn't hollow the victory even the slightest amount. Maybe it would if we stole completely developed players from someone else, but we haven't. Maybe only Morgan, but I'm not against allowing players from associate countries to have a shot at the big-time. Though I do think the re-qualification for Ireland needs to be looked at.

    Lumb is completely irrelevant imo, massive ties to the UK, KP wouldn't be in any way the player he is for SA that he is for us and he spent ages qualifying, Kieswetter made his decision as a young man and has also put in the hard yards to qualify.

  8. #38
    JJD Heads Athlai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by four_or_six View Post
    Doesn't hollow the victory even the slightest amount. Maybe it would if we stole completely developed players from someone else, but we haven't. Maybe only Morgan, but I'm not against allowing players from associate countries to have a shot at the big-time. Though I do think the re-qualification for Ireland needs to be looked at.
    That one player was arguably the most valuable English player throughout.

  9. #39
    Cricketer Of The Year four_or_six's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athlai View Post
    That one player was arguably the most valuable English player throughout.
    One of. Like I said, I'm not in any way against Associate players playing for test teams, I think it's excellent that the very best can play at the top level. The only issue in my mind is the length of the re-qualification for Ireland, it seems too long.

  10. #40
    Global Moderator vic_orthdox's Avatar
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    Yeah, the only one that slightly rankles with me is Morgan, more because of what has happened to Ed Joyce; that Joyce has been taken off Ireland's books basically now until he is a cricketing pensioner is really unfortunate and something should be done about that sort of situation.

    Thus, my issue is with the system, and not with England.

  11. #41
    JJD Heads Athlai's Avatar
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    Yeah been trying to make it clear that it isn't the players or England I have the problems with but the current system that welcomes it.

  12. #42
    Hall of Fame Member superkingdave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athlai View Post
    That one player was arguably the most valuable English player throughout.
    Well Pietersen was our top scorer and Morgan scored most of his runs against WI & Ireland, which we drew and lost (his other scores were 5, 22, 40, 2* & 15*).

    The bowlers won us the tournament imo. Restricted the opposition to under par scores throughout.
    Last edited by superkingdave; 17-05-2010 at 12:02 AM.
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  13. #43
    JJD Heads Athlai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superkingdave View Post
    Well Pietersen was our top scorer and Morgan scored most of his runs against WI & Ireland, which we drew and lost.

    The bowlers won us the tournament imo. Restricted the opposition to under par scores throughout.
    Swanny imo.

  14. #44
    International Coach flibbertyjibber's Avatar
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    Some incredibly sour grapes in here.Love it.

  15. #45
    Global Moderator vic_orthdox's Avatar
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    Must admit it's somewhat ironic that Kieswetter and Morgan were both at the same U/19 World Cup, representing SA and Ireland respectively.

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