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Group D - West Indies, England, Ireland

superkingdave

Hall of Fame Member
Don't know anyone who cares apart from my Dad, and he's a cynical old bastard who would be disappointed if he didn't have anything to complain about.


Anyway, we'll be off again now.
Just to come back on this, someone like Paul Horton, would love him to play for England, lived in Australia till he was in his early teens, but has been in the Lancashire system since he was U15 (English parents), don't think I would feel any better if some Yorkie was in the side ahead of him.
 

GIMH

Norwood's on Fire
There will be a breaking point Geraint, once more & more South African's realise the can have a better live & earn more money & it gets to a point that there are more S African-born than English-born players in the team, I think English fans will start wincing a little.
The point is he's not a 'South African' really, given that his folks are English, of course that's going off my definition of nationality. The only person in our side with no parental link to England as far as I can tell is Morgan...
 

wpdavid

Hall of Fame Member
There will be a breaking point Geraint, once more & more South African's realise the can have a better live & earn more money & it gets to a point that there are more S African-born than English-born players in the team, I think English fans will start wincing a little.
Agreed - but I think Geraint's right to point out that someone like Lumb, especially with two English parents, isn't the same as Trott or Kieswetter who has represented SA at some junior level.
 

social

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Shame for both teams

120 was all Ireland could've hoped for and "maybe" Eng didnt deserve to be in sudden death after knocking up 191 yesterday
 

Kyle

School Boy/Girl Captain
Regardless of how you view nationality, it's tough to believe that only 2/6 of the best batsmen in the country weren't actually born here is a coincidence.

They may not have learnt their cricket overseas (though some have), but I believe they learnt their attitude towards competition and the game. That's more what I think is wrong with England producing their own batsmen.
 
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BoyBrumby

Englishman
Lumb sounds a yarp, tbf.

Ironically, given his name and being an ex SAU19 player, Kieswetter probably has the least saffie inflection to his accent of our converts.

I personally think we're obliged to pick our best players, regardless of birthplace or upbringing. System needs overhauling from the bottom up until we produce more quality natives.
 

four_or_six

Cricketer Of The Year
Do we have a lot more Saffas coming through at the moment? I kind of assume that these things come and go and so numbers in the side will change soon enough.
 

King Pietersen

International Captain
Well, the better young batsmen coming through are probably Taylor, Vince, Denly, Northeast and in OD cricket arguably Hales (possibly forgetting someone obvious; Hamilton-Brown appears to have something about him too). Don't think any of those lads are South African. Think it's just a phase that will pass tbh.
 
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Uppercut

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Vaughan's saying shorter matches favour Ireland. Don't know if that's entirely true in the case of this particular team. Their players aren't generally capable of humming along at 10 an over for the last five the way we're accustomed to seeing test sides go.
 

superkingdave

Hall of Fame Member
Do we have a lot more Saffas coming through at the moment? I kind of assume that these things come and go and so numbers in the side will change soon enough.
Dunno, but Keiswetter would want to be scoring runs soon, Davies has had a pretty handy start to the season.
 

grecian

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I'll admit I'm worried about all these Saffies in our side, worried that they're not scoring any ****ing runs.
 

Uppercut

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Davies has been equal if not better than Kieswetter over all of his career though - doesn't seem to make the selector's pick him.
TBF Kieswetter got into the T20 team on the back of a couple of insanely good performances for the Lions, one of them against England IIRC. It's debatable who the better player is but it's hard to argue that he wasn't picked on merit.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Except you could argue that Davies should've been in for the past 12-18 months before that, by which time he'd have conceivably cemented his spot.
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
Vaughan's saying shorter matches favour Ireland. Don't know if that's entirely true in the case of this particular team. Their players aren't generally capable of humming along at 10 an over for the last five the way we're accustomed to seeing test sides go.
Yeah, I think he's just going along with the typical "India are a good example of this" theory famously introduced by Ponting that suggests that the shorter the format, the more likely the upset. While this is true to an extent - a smaller sample size will always increase the chance of a false conclusion - you also have to take into account the simple fact that Ireland are a lot better at fifty over cricket than twenty over cricket. It's not just the same thing in smaller sample sizes; the demands of the game change as it's shortened. Shortening it again will just make them even worse, particularly given they've already bowled. This is totally different to, for example, taking a random patch of ten overs from each side's innings in an ODI and comparing them, which would obviously favour Ireland a lot more than the entirety of the ODI.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is that while they now have a bigger chance of pulling off a fluke, their chances of genuinely outplaying the opposition have gone down. Vaughan probably doesn't believe the latter is actually possible.
 
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Uppercut

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Yeah, I think he's just going along with the typical "India are a good example of this" theory famously introduced by Ponting that suggests that the shorter the format, the more likely the upset. While this is true to an extent - a smaller sample size will always increase the chance of a false conclusion - you also have to take into account the simple fact that Ireland are a lot better at fifty over cricket than twenty over cricket. It's not just the same thing in smaller sample sizes; the demands of the game change as it's shortened. Shortening it again will just make them even worse, particularly given they've already bowled. This is totally different to, for example, taking a random patch of ten overs from each side's innings in an ODI and comparing them, which would obviously favour Ireland a lot more than the entirety of the ODI.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is that while they now have a bigger chance of pulling off a fluke, their chances of genuinely outplaying the opposition have gone down. Vaughan probably doesn't believe the latter is actually possible.
Yeah, you're absolutely right. Duckworth/Lewis helped England when they played Ireland in an ODI last summer, despite Ireland batting second and hence receiving what looked a pretty generous target. Afghanistan would prefer a short, sharp chase, but we like to play ourselves in. Our bowling is considerably better in ODIs too I reckon, although we've done pretty well so far here.
 

King Pietersen

International Captain
Davies has been equal if not better than Kieswetter over all of his career though - doesn't seem to make the selector's pick him.
Davies has been consistently good, but Kieswetter was exceptional when the eyes were firmly on the pair of them. Kieswetter out-scored Davies in every single Lions match they played, and Davies was dropped during that tour and replaced by Lumb, who also scored big against England. Davies probably deserved the call-up ahead of Prior earlier, but Kieswetter forced his name into the selectors minds and simply had to be picked. Kieswetter's not exactly been terrible either. ODi century in his 3rd game, and played nicely in the 1st game of this tournament.
 

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