View Poll Results: Who is better ?

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  • Pele

    16 51.61%
  • Maradona

    7 22.58%
  • Can't decide

    1 3.23%
  • Which one is the leg spinner?

    7 22.58%
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Thread: Pele vs Maradona

  1. #91
    Hall of Fame Member Goughy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    Ok, let's make it clear...I am not dismissing the story because it was the NYT that printed it. Stop building a strawman. I don't think the NYT is much of an authority on football or Maradona but that's not my argument. I simply said the article sounds like a hit-job the way the author keeps attacking Diego.

    I am dismissing it because no one else has printed it...and there is no proof I can find, and apparently that you can show me. The NYT is not a bastion of journalism. It's a reputable source, but a story without proof is ultimately worthless. Naming a doctor who claims to have worked with Maradona is not proof. You claimed this story is widely known...it's not even easily found on Google and non-existant on Wikipedia. And I don't mention those two sources as if the story will be validated by them mentioning it...but at least it would be as you claim widespread enough for people to quiz over.

    You claimed it has been talked about years upon years and in documentaries, books, etc. Ok, name some or quote something that can prove it to some extent. Either you man up and admit it isn't, or you prove it is and I man up and admit I was wrong. It's no skin off my nose to admit being wrong; but I hate being treated like an idiot.
    Ok, lets take a variety of print publications that mention it. That in itself isnt proof but it shows that it is out there, printed and commonly accepted. Certainly widespread and accepted enough that it has never been challenged as false by Maradona or anyone else. In an earler post you claim that this is being hidden. It isnt. It is openly out there in mainstream publications.

    Maradona's latest crusade - Soccer, Sport - Independent.ie
    Cornejo became an early influence on Maradona's career and he became the first to allow him to tangle with medicine men and Dr Feelgoods. Cornejo persuaded Maradona's parents to allow him to take the boy to a local doctor, 'Cacho' Paladino, who had a dubious reputation but specialised in building up boxers with vitamins and drugs. "Diego was so small when I took him on that he didn't seem to be strong enough," Cornejo told Burns. "I wanted Paladino to round him off, get him fatter and bigger. So I asked the doctor to give him vitamins and other things to help him develop. 'Cacho', I said to him, 'you fix him. This boy is going to grow up to be a star'." Nothing was getting in the way of the dream.

    Chris Taylor: The Observer Profile: Diego Maradona | Football | The Observer
    As a boy, he had been given steroids to build him up and as a player he regularly received cortisone shots to play while injured, but it was in Barcelona that he discovered the recreational use of cocaine, a habit that grew in Naples.

    Diego Armando Maradona - The Sorrow and the Pity - NYTimes.com
    Drugs and Maradona are more linked than is at first apparent. He was weaned on them even before he knew it. Scurrilous men in his past, so-called doctors, mixed steroids with his food to build a frail physique into something bull-like.

    In his teens, he was administered more drugs. These, the appalling painkillers that sporting authorities incongruously allow, racked and distorted the ankle, the knee, the suffering back of a superstar whose multimillion-dollar transfer fees and million-dollar salary were the excuses to patch him up, to push him through nature's warning, to play him on half a leg.


    Diego Maradona in FHM, April 2000 | Reviews | 16 Dec 2009 | FHM.com
    Aged eight, he signed up to the youth wing of Argentinos Juniors, then a first division side. On arrival, however, the youth trainer noted that the kid was exceptionally small, almost dwarf-like. It was at this point that Maradona first became aware of the power of drugs.

    The point I am trying to make with these, regardless of sources, is that this isnt something that is hidden or unknown. This is out there and have been for years with a wide variety of publications making note of it and stating it as fact rather than rumour.

    Now without a doubt a lot of this was influenced by the book "Hand of God: The Life of Diego Maradona, Soccer's Fallen Star" by Jimmy Burns and others have taken it further.





    That has direct quotes from his mentor and doctor on their backroom medicine methods.

    In an effort to be fair, here is the author on how Maradona found the book.

    I cant find any of the documentaries online that I have seen that have looked into it. So you can either take my word on that, which I doubt you will do or dismiss it, which you are within your rights to do.

    You want a wiki mention? Well Id argue that that doesnt mean much but there are lots of mentions on non-English language wikipedia pages.
    Here is the translated page of Serbian language Wikipedia and it is in a lot of others. I have no idea why it is not on the English language page.

    "Uz dopuštenje roditelja odveo je Diega lekaru sumnjive reputacije. With the permission of parents took the dubious reputation Diego doctor. Kačo Paladino, injekcijama, je podignuo mišiće buduće zvijezde. Paladin je to 1995 . Kačo Paladino, injections, the muscles podignuo future stars. Paladin is 1995 . godine, nakon penzionisanja, priznao pred novinarima rekavši: Kad sam okončao tretman, Diego je izgledao poput najboljeg trkačkog konja. years after retirement, admitted to reporters saying: When I completed treatment, Diego looked like the best horse racing. Pri tom uopšte nije pocrveneo, a trebao je, jer je tim činom odveo Maradonu u svet dopinga. At the same time did not blush, and was supposed to, because that act took Maradona to the world of doping."

    Now it is fine if you don't believe it. But it is more than just rumours and most in the game have little to no problem accepting the words of his mentor, doctor and those around him and believe it to be true.

    As I said previously, I dont hold this against Maradona. I see him as a victim of a twisted combination of the will of others to help him and themselves.
    Last edited by Goughy; 17-06-2010 at 12:03 PM.
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  2. #92
    International Coach Pothas's Avatar
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    Why is there a cricket chat style thread in this part of the forum?

    Get rid of it please.

  3. #93
    International Coach Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goughy View Post
    As I said previously, I dont hold this against Maradona. I see him as a victim of a twisted combination of the will of others to help him and themselves.
    TBF, I am still cynical about it all but I don't hold the same reservation about it. It's quite possible it happened and, in light of reading the above, even probable. What he was given at such a young age is anyone's guess. The fact that they gave it to him, the fact that the person administering the concoctions didn't really know what he was doing, leaves one to question the sanity of it all. But I guess in poverty you are searching for any way out. I am not sure how this diminishes the guy's legacy but it's a strange thing. One wonders if players of that generation or even now are still doing it.

    Thanks for the research, I appreciate the trouble of making the post.
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  4. #94
    U19 Vice-Captain Edged&Taken's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel_Vimes View Post
    hijo de puta is the old son of a whore...
    thought so. thanks man. you the guy who got A+ in Miss Hernandez's Spanish tests or does your barber speak Spanish ?


  5. #95
    Hall of Fame Member Goughy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    TBF, I am still cynical about it all but I don't hold the same reservation about it. It's quite possible it happened and, in light of reading the above, even probable. What he was given at such a young age is anyone's guess. The fact that they gave it to him, the fact that the person administering the concoctions didn't really know what he was doing, leaves one to question the sanity of it all. But I guess in poverty you are searching for any way out. I am not sure how this diminishes the guy's legacy but it's a strange thing. One wonders if players of that generation or even now are still doing it.

    Thanks for the research, I appreciate the trouble of making the post.
    No problem. It was actually fun to keyboard bash to see what I could find to back something Id read and watched a long time ago. Its something that if true, and I would guess it is, that Maradona had no say over and still has no idea what went into his body. Its sad that this mistreatment probably led to his body breaking down as he got older. Also sad that people believe that his self destructive streak came from believing that people didnt love him and treated him as a commodity. Which would be entirely understandable.

    The man is a **** but there are aspects of his story that are unfortunate and that he isnt responsible for. Still a great player though.
    Last edited by Goughy; 17-06-2010 at 12:10 PM.

  6. #96
    Cricketer Of The Year The Sean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edged&Taken View Post
    thought so. thanks man. you the guy who got A+ in Miss Hernandez's Spanish tests or does your barber speak Spanish ?
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  7. #97
    Virat Kohli (c) Jono's Avatar
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    Goughy, you're an impressive poster.
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  8. #98
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend Samuel_Vimes's Avatar
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    Haha yeah. Had heard of 'filho da puta' chants in Brazilian football stands though, it's really common.
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  9. #99
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend Samuel_Vimes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    . At his peak in 1970 he had the best team, won the tourney comfortably and was outscored by even his teammates.
    That wasn't his peak though. He'd stopped top scoring in that So Paulo league in 1965.

    I'm still stunned as to how 12 from 14 is a 'much inferior' record than 1200 in 1300. It's basically the same rate ffs.

  10. #100
    International Coach Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel_Vimes View Post
    That wasn't his peak though. He'd stopped top scoring in that So Paulo league in 1965.

    I'm still stunned as to how 12 from 14 is a 'much inferior' record than 1200 in 1300. It's basically the same rate ffs.
    I don't mean his absolute peak but to separate that from the period after 1970 where he practically retired/played in US. In his peak he didn't have good WCs. Also I never claimed the bolded, where did you get that from?

    Well, in his first WC he scored 6 goals, for the rest he was below a goal a game. In 62 he scored 1 goal, got injured and didn't play again. In 66 he scored 1 goal in the 2 games he played and Brazil were eliminated. In 70, they went all the way and he scored 4 goals.

    It's much more achievable to get that kind of SR in a relatively small tourney...whereas that 20 year SR is matched by maybe 1-2 other players in history - Puskas and Muller?* Ronaldo IIRC has 15 goals in 17 games but even he cannot get close to that kind of dominance. It's not really the SR that matters but what it suggests. It's akin to a batsman averaging 100 over a 20 year career against one that averages that in a few series.

    It's basically this:

    58 - 6 goals but top scorer was Fountaine with 13.
    62 - 1 goal, injured and out for the rest of the tourney.
    66 - 1 goal and Brazil eliminated from the tourney.
    70 - 4 goals, Gerd Muller with 10 and Jairzinho with 7.

    *Puskas was injured in 54 and didn't play most of the tourney/was 35 in 62 - Muller actually did win the Golden boot.
    Last edited by Ikki; 17-06-2010 at 03:04 PM.

  11. #101
    International Coach Pothas's Avatar
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    Jesus christ Ikki. Leave it please.

  12. #102
    Spanish_Vicente sledger's Avatar
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    It was so nice to not have to read a thread with any stats for a while.

  13. #103
    International Coach Ikki's Avatar
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    Guys, FFS, if you don't want to read it...don't read it. Worse than "annoying" discussions is people repeatedly whinging about it being annoying. Either skip the posts or just ignore the users. Easy.

  14. #104
    Hall of Fame Member Goughy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel_Vimes View Post
    Haha yeah. Had heard of 'filho da puta' chants in Brazilian football stands though, it's really common.
    Source?

  15. #105
    Cricketer Of The Year The Sean's Avatar
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