Pele vs Maradona

[The Sean]

It's another of those "comparing across eras" arguments that prove to be so divisive in CC. Personally I'm not one of these people who thinks that because the game was less developed 50 years ago it means the players were worse - it's all relative IMHO.

As for the fact that Pele's teams were better than Maradona's, that's certainly true but on the other hand to me it says something that in probably the greatest team there's ever been, Pele was still the undisputed star. He was the undisputed star of the Brazil team for pretty much his entire career too - Garrincha was considered to be just about on the same plane for a few years in the '60s but the claim that Pele wasn't even the best player on his own team at the time is quite frankly bollocks. Such a phenomenon was he that Pele was deemed a National Treasure by Brazil in 1961, before his 21st birthday, and as such there's no justification in the claim that it's only over time that people have revised his status within the game.

Anyway, Pele for me.

[The Sean]

Originally Posted by Ikki

Compare that with Maradona who practically single-handedly led Argentina and Napoli to titles. 86 will always stand out as the standard for any player with claims of all-time greatness. What he did with Napoli against Sacchi's Milan, with all that talent, is quite unbelievable - classic David vs Goliath.

Originally Posted by Ikki

Also, Valdano and Burachaga were far from outstanding world-stars - of which there were plenty in Pele's teams. Also, Maradona did the same thing for Napoli. It wasn't really a one-time thing.

Maradona's performances for Napoli were amazing and he's rightly considered something approaching a God in the South of Italy, but it's not as though he was surrounded by a team of rank amateurs - there were some fantastic players in that Napoli side of the late '80s.

[The Sean]

Originally Posted by Edged&Taken

The quintessential 'Tendulkar vs Lara' of a football forum

Originally Posted by Jono

George Best / Ricky Ponting

Alfredo Di Stefano / Jacques Kallis TBH

[Goughy]

Originally Posted by Goughy

I thought it was common knowledge. Ill look for something though.

As I said, I thought it was common knowledge. People in and around the game have openly talked about Maradona being fed a cocktail of PED from a small child onwards. I just wish it was easier to find better online sources.

Diego Armando Maradona - The Sorrow and the Pity - NYTimes.com

Drugs and Maradona are more linked than is at first apparent. He was weaned on them even before he knew it. Scurrilous men in his past, so-called doctors, mixed steroids with his food to build a frail physique into something bull-like.

In his teens, he was administered more drugs. These, the appalling painkillers that sporting authorities incongruously allow, racked and distorted the ankle, the knee, the suffering back of a superstar whose multimillion-dollar transfer fees and million-dollar salary were the excuses to patch him up, to push him through nature's warning, to play him on half a leg.

THE REAL THING | Sunday Herald, The Newspaper | Find Articles at BNET

If Maradona emerged now from the slums of Buenos Aires, a squat youngster with extraordinary speed and grace, he would be enveloped in a caring cocoon, not because football is run by nicer people than it once was, but because they are more professional. His first club in Argentina would not pump him full of steroids to build his strength because that would be bad business

Profile: Diego Maradona

The drug problems which have dogged his career were about to become public knowledge. As a boy, he had been given steroids to build him up and as a player he regularly received cortisone shots to play while injured, but it was in Barcelona that he discovered the recreational use of cocaine, a habit that grew in Naples.

[Uppercut]

Hmm, cheers for that, fairly interesting. Alarm bells go off when you ask someone for a source and they use the phrase "common knowledge" .

[wpdavid]

Originally Posted by Ikki

Ronaldinho wasn't particularly effective in 06, but few would argue he isn't an all-time great. Ronaldo was so-so. Basically the same team/stars 4 years later didn't reproduce. Those players are all-time greats and even Pele named them amongst his best ever players IIRC. Carlos Alberto retired in 77 and is regarded by the world as one of the greatest full-backs of all-time.

The problem here is that you're stating value judgements as if they're concrete facts. I'm afraid that repeating the mantra that Jair, Riverlinho & Tostao were ATGs doesn't make it true. Very fine players of course, but not remotely on the same plane as Pele over a significant period of time. I'm not sure why you're basing their status on Pele's opinion of them given your earlier post to the effect that he regularly didn't know what he was talking about. I dunno who you mean by 'the world' but I don't know many folks who'd place Carlos Alberto as one of the greatest full backs of all time. held in great affection, obviously, as as a one-time right back myself his goal against Italy is the stuff of wet dreams, but I wouldn't pick him ahead of someone I knew would do his job at the back.

btw if we're dismissing Pele's record of over 1000 fc goals, do we have any idea how many other players came close to that? If defensive standards were so poor, there should be quite a few.

[Samuel_Vimes]

Originally Posted by wpdavid

btw if we're dismissing Pele's record of over 1000 fc goals, do we have any idea how many other players came close to that? If defensive standards were so poor, there should be quite a few.

It was a hard enough league for Santos not to win every year despite (or perhaps because of) winning lots of international club matches (Libertadores and Intercontinental) and Pelé scoring 30+ goals nearly every season.

Can have a look at the league stats here.

[BoyBrumby]

No thread dedicated to Maradona would be complete without this.

WAG.

[The Sean]

Originally Posted by wpdavid

btw if we're dismissing Pele's record of over 1000 fc goals, do we have any idea how many other players came close to that? If defensive standards were so poor, there should be quite a few.

Originally Posted by Samuel_Vimes

It was a hard enough league for Santos not to win every year despite (or perhaps because of) winning lots of international club matches (Libertadores and Intercontinental) and Pelé scoring 30+ goals nearly every season.

Exactly. Writing off Pele's goalscoring record as being hugely inflated by his performances for Santos both insults the quality of that league and also ignores his international record for Brazil, which was fantastic - 77 in 92 full internationals, 12 in 14 World Cup games. And we have to remember to take into account that he was an inside-left, not an out-and-out centre-forward, and was often just as much a creator as a scorer.

[Teja.]

I do not know if Maradona was fed PED without his knowledge as a teenager, all I can rate him on is his effectiveness on the field and his achievements. Based on that, for me, he is without doubt the finest footballer of all-time.

My top five would look like this:-

1.Diego Maradona
2.Lev Yashin
3.Franz Beckenbauer
4.Alberto Di Stefeno
5.Pele

[Edged&Taken]

Originally Posted by BoyBrumby

No thread dedicated to Maradona would be complete without this.

WAG.

Animal hijo de puta, eres una bestia. picked up one of the comments posted for that clip . cannot translate but sure does not seem like a compliment

[Goughy]

Originally Posted by Uppercut

Hmm, cheers for that, fairly interesting. Alarm bells go off when you ask someone for a source and they use the phrase "common knowledge" .

No problem. I just assumed it was something that people who have followed football for a long time would know. I have no problem with being asked for a source.

I dont know the medical science but its been said on a number of occasions that Maradona had to have his knees scraped regularly, in addition to other medical problems, to get rid of build up due to the growth agents he was fed as a child.

[Goughy]

Originally Posted by wpdavid

His total number of goals - over 1000 ffs - scored counts for a lot imo, even if they were mostly scored for Santos. Given the quality of players produced, the Brazilian league can't have been complete crap, but obviously I'm guessing to some extent.

Bobby Charlton has a great quote. He was sat with Puskas when the news of the celebration over Peles 1000th goal came through. Charlton commented on how it was a great achievement. Puskas said it was but that he had got his 6 years earlier and had not made a fuss about it.

Pele = Great player but it is always hard to seperate the player from the hype. Fooballs Clay/Ali in that regard.

[The Sean]

Ha ha true - never shy about self-promotion, was Pele.

[GIMH]

Originally Posted by BoyBrumby

No thread dedicated to Maradona would be complete without this.

WAG.