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View Poll Results: Who is better ?

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  • Pele

    16 51.61%
  • Maradona

    7 22.58%
  • Can't decide

    1 3.23%
  • Which one is the leg spinner?

    7 22.58%
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Thread: Pele vs Maradona

  1. #31
    Hall of Fame Member grecian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    Maradona didn't take performance enhancing drugs; he was on cocaine. If anything, it hindered his playing.

    And stating that Pele was more complete is a bit of a joke argument. Might as well argue that Ballack is better than Messi.

    Also, Valdano and Burachaga were far from outstanding world-stars - of which there were plenty in Pele's teams. Also, Maradona did the same thing for Napoli. It wasn't really a one-time thing.
    Umm, you do realise Cocaine is a stimulant, oh and what GIMH said about other drugs?

    Being complete is one of the reasons he's better, I also stated that he could dribble and had great vision.

    Meh, not going to get in a quote-fest with you Ikki, have giving my reasons why I believe he's better, you've reiterated your points in a different way, as you do. Don't want to ruin a potentially good thread.
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  2. #32
    Cricketer Of The Year wpdavid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    Maradona didn't take performance enhancing drugs; he was on cocaine. If anything, it hindered his playing.

    And stating that Pele was more complete is a bit of a joke argument. Might as well argue that Ballack is better than Messi.

    Also, Valdano and Burachaga were far from outstanding world-stars - of which there were plenty in Pele's teams. Also, Maradona did the same thing for Napoli. It wasn't really a one-time thing.
    I wonder if there really were plenty of world stars in the 1970 Brazil team. There were plenty who played really but only in that tournament. Certainly not chocka of ATGs imo. 1958 was a bit before my time, but possibly the same then?

  3. #33
    International Coach Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeraintIsMyHero View Post
    Now come on....
    Well, exactly. Who cares if you score with both feet if you're scoring a ****load with the one you have. Who cares if you have height when you can turn on a dime. That's the beauty of football.

    Quote Originally Posted by wpdavid View Post
    Are you sure that's what they found in his sample in 1994?
    and ergo we don't know how long he'd been taking the stuff?
    No, we know what he was taking before and it was Cocaine. There are mixed stories surrounding the ephedrine but it's pretty obvious he was simply desperate to play in 1994 and was wanting to lose weight/get fit by any means. Suggesting that marks a question over everything else he did before is a step too far.
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  4. #34
    International Coach Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wpdavid View Post
    I wonder if there really were plenty of world stars in the 1970 Brazil team. There were plenty who played really but only in that tournament. Certainly not chocka of ATGs imo. 1958 was a bit before my time, but possibly the same then?
    Carlos Alberto, Rivelino, Jairzinho, Tostao... that team is regarded as the best of all time. In 58 they had Garrincha, Vava, Zagallo...an awesome team.

    Also on your previous point re catenaccio: it actually started off with 1 defender. It's more of a tactic/approach than an actual formation.


  5. #35
    International Coach Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grecian View Post
    Umm, you do realise Cocaine is a stimulant, oh and what GIMH said about other drugs?
    I'm not particularly knowledgeable on drugs but I am fairly sure it isn't that effective as an enhancer, especially considering the addiction that Maradona had to it.

    Cocaine explained as a performance enhancing drug in sport
    Effects on Performance

    The effects of cocaine on performance are minimal and are limited to increasing arousal and alertness with low doses. As the dose increases, detrimental effects such as reduced co-ordination and unwarranted aggression are frequently reported.
    Being complete is one of the reasons he's better, I also stated that he could dribble and had great vision.
    Yes, but you can argue that it's a measure of degrees. I'd argue Pele couldn't beat players like Maradona, with that consistency, so it's not so much different to Maradona not using his right foot as often as his left. I also wouldn't put his vision on par with Maradona's.

    I actually put a lot of stock on being a "complete" player, but in actual fact neither are actually complete. They were attacking players and for me a "complete" player is one that actually knows how to defend. These things are a means to an end, not an end in itself.
    Last edited by Ikki; 17-06-2010 at 04:47 AM.

  6. #36
    Cricketer Of The Year wpdavid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    Carlos Alberto, Rivelino, Jairzinho, Tostao... that team is regarded as the best of all time. In 58 they had Garrincha, Vava, Zagallo...an awesome team.
    wadr I know the names of the 1970 side, but my point remains that for all apart from Pele that was their one good WC. They're highly regarded because it all came together for half a dozen games in one tournament when conditions were stacked in their favour anyway. But Jair & Rivelino didn't do much in 1974, ditto Tostao in 1966. Can't remember whether Carlos Alberto played in other WCs but if we're honest he's only so highly regarded because of that goal in the final. Maybe you're on stronger ground 1958, although I wouldn't choose to be as defintiive about it as you: at least those players did it in two world cups and conditions in Sweden weren't as obviously in their favour as 1970. That being said, Pele made a huge difference once he was introduced to the side (possibly the 3rd group game?) despite being only 17 years old.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    Also on your previous point re catenaccio: it actually started off with 1 defender. It's more of a tactic/approach than an actual formation.
    Doesn't alter the fact that my the mid1960's defensive play was way more advanced than your earlier post suggested.

  7. #37
    International Coach Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wpdavid View Post
    wadr I know the names of the 1970 side, but my point remains that for all apart from Pele that was their one good WC. They're highly regarded because it all came together for half a dozen games in one tournament when conditions were stacked in their favour anyway. But Jair & Rivelino didn't do much in 1974, ditto Tostao in 1966. Can't remember whether Carlos Alberto played in other WCs but if we're honest he's only so highly regarded because of that goal in the final. Maybe you're on stronger ground 1958, although I wouldn't choose to be as defintiive about it as you: at least those players did it in two world cups and conditions in Sweden weren't as obviously in their favour as 1970. That being said, Pele made a huge difference once he was introduced to the side (possibly the 3rd group game?) despite being only 17 years old.
    Ronaldinho wasn't particularly effective in 06, but few would argue he isn't an all-time great. Ronaldo was so-so. Basically the same team/stars 4 years later didn't reproduce. Those players are all-time greats and even Pele named them amongst his best ever players IIRC. Carlos Alberto retired in 77 and is regarded by the world as one of the greatest full-backs of all-time. These guys easily shade players like Valdano who is more renown for his writing than he is on the pitch.


    Doesn't alter the fact that my the mid1960's defensive play was way more advanced than your earlier post suggested.
    It was more advanced as football tends to evolve over years but not to the extent you suggest. If you follow or read about football tactics, you'd know how much different the sport was from Pele's retirement onwards. Far more difficult than his playing career. From Michels to Sacchi to Olsen...the sport changed plenty. Even in this last decade tactics have changed a lot from box-to-box midfielders to specialists and now people like Jonathan Wilson argue that the most important players in a team are full-backs.
    Last edited by Ikki; 17-06-2010 at 05:05 AM.

  8. #38
    Eternal Optimist / Cricket Web Staff Member GIMH's Avatar
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    I would not call Ronaldinho an all-time great, his peak was too short

    As for Ronaldo being so-so, am I missing something here?
    Quote Originally Posted by DingDong View Post
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    RIP Craigos. A true CW legend. You will be missed.

  9. #39
    International Coach Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeraintIsMyHero View Post
    I would not call Ronaldinho an all-time great, his peak was too short

    As for Ronaldo being so-so, am I missing something here?
    Ronaldo performed amazingly in 06? Not CR, the real one. And if you don't think a two-time world player of the year is an all-time great, I am not sure who qualifies.

  10. #40
    Eternal Optimist / Cricket Web Staff Member GIMH's Avatar
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    I didn't realise you were talking just about 06 WRT Ronaldo...thought you were assessing his whole career

    As for Ronaldinho, dunno, thought he was amazing for a few years but declined too quick to be given ATG status, depends on how you classify that though I guess

  11. #41
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend Uppercut's Avatar
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    I don't agree with much of what Ikki's saying, but I do think Maradona was the better player. There are so many variables in the comparison and I'd have Pele as a close second but I'd much rather play in defence against Pele than against Maradona.
    Quote Originally Posted by zaremba View Post
    The Filth have comfortably the better bowling. But the Gash have the batting. Might be quite good to watch.

  12. #42
    Global Moderator Teja.'s Avatar
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    Maradona by a good margin, Pele would just about make my top 5.

  13. #43
    Hall of Fame Member Goughy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    Maradona didn't take performance enhancing drugs; he was on cocaine. If anything, it hindered his playing.

    And stating that Pele was more complete is a bit of a joke argument. Might as well argue that Ballack is better than Messi.
    Dude, from a very young age he was being fed illegal concoctions to help his growth and speed with the knowledge of his team and family.Everyone wanted to make a dollar off him. It has caused him a number of problems in later life.

    To say he didnt take PED ignores the fact that he was, for want of a better word, scientifically engineered by PED.
    If I only just posted the above post, please wait 5 mins before replying as there is bound to be edits

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  14. #44
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend Uppercut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goughy View Post
    Dude, from a very young age he was being fed illegal concoctions to help his growth and speed with the knowledge of his team and family.Everyone wanted to make a dollar off him. It has caused him a number of problems in later life.

    To say he didnt take PED ignores the fact that he was, for want of a better word, scientifically engineered by PED.
    Hmm. What's the source for this stuff?

  15. #45
    Hall of Fame Member Goughy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uppercut View Post
    Hmm. What's the source for this stuff?
    I thought it was common knowledge. Ill look for something though.
    Last edited by Goughy; 17-06-2010 at 06:47 AM.

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