Group H - Spain, Switzerland, Honduras, Chile

[BoyBrumby]

In all fairness it was a triumph of tactics over talent. If the Swiss had tried to take on Spain at their own game they'd have come badly second.

It wasn't a bad game to watch either; admittedly if/when Switzerland play similarly limited teams it might not be such a spectacle, but I don't believe "lesser" teams' sole purpose is to lie down to have their bellies tickle and be patronised by the winning coach for trying to play the game in the right way.

Cameroon beat Argentina in 1990 with a masterful display of defence and barely restrained violence and that was the greatest result for football ever.

 

[GIMH]

This face?

That face is from the team that has been beaten one less time than Spain in this tournament

 

[Furball]

And they lost to USA in the Confederations Cup and just lost to Switzerland. Anyone who has them down as even second favourites is living in cloud ****oo land - a lot of people had them even better than that.

So what team with a greater than 90% win rate over nearly 50 games would you have had as 2nd favourites then?

 

[GIMH]

Why does the team have to have over a 90% win rate to be favourites?

 

[Furball]

Why does the team have to have over a 90% win rate to be favourites?

Winning 45 and losing 1 of your last 48 games is a pretty epic run of form, no?

 

[GIMH]

I didn't say it wasn't...Scaly's point is, though, that they always choke on the big stage. Which makes their form in qualifiers, Euros and friendlies kind of irrelevant, through the line of argument.

 

[Magrat Garlick]

I didn't say it wasn't...Scaly's point is, though, that they always choke on the big stage. Which makes their form in qualifiers, Euros and friendlies kind of irrelevant, through the line of argument.

The 'always choke' argument only wins by redefining the big stage though. When they win the Euros that's not an important tournament. When they win a quarter-final that's not an important match. Etc. I could say England always choke on the big stage, by saying that they only managed to win by the comfort of their home; it'd be roughly as valid.

Also, I really don't get what the failures of a Spanish side without any of the current players has to do with anything. The 'winning culture' might show up in penalty shoot-outs but that's about it.

Finally, it's much easier to be right on 'negative' predictions. I agree that it's more likely that Spain won't win the tournament than a Spanish win; but (before today) I couldn't find a single team that's more likely to win than them.

 

[GIMH]

The 'always choke' argument only wins by redefining the big stage though. When they win the Euros that's not an important tournament. When they win a quarter-final that's not an important match. Etc. I could say England always choke on the big stage, by saying that they only managed to win by the comfort of their home; it'd be roughly as valid.

Also, I really don't get what the failures of a Spanish side without any of the current players has to do with anything. The 'winning culture' might show up in penalty shoot-outs but that's about it.

Finally, it's much easier to be right on 'negative' predictions. I agree that it's more likely that Spain won't win the tournament than a Spanish win; but (before today) I couldn't find a single team that's more likely to win than them.

A - people always say England always fail on the big stage. It's true. What's that got to do with anything?
B - The failures of past sides are always used with all teams, it's not just the Spanish but the English and the Dutch. No different to how the Germans, Brazillians and dirty Argies are always quite fancied regardless of their side.

I'm not the one who doesn't rate Spain tbh but Scaly has been consistent in his position for quite some time.

 

[Furball]

A - people always say England always fail on the big stage. It's true. What's that got to do with anything?
B - The failures of past sides are always used with all teams, it's not just the Spanish but the English and the Dutch. No different to how the Germans, Brazillians and dirty Argies are always quite fancied regardless of their side.

I'm not the one who doesn't rate Spain tbh but Scaly has been consistent in his position for quite some time.

His position is wrong.

The majority of this Spanish side have become international regulars since the last World Cup. In that time frame they've played 48 games and won 45 of them. Brazil aside, no-one has a greater claim to the favourites tag than the Spanish.

That Spain have largely underachieved throughout the 90s and 00s is nothing to do with the current generation of players. When they've played together, they've been excellent - and one setback where they were unfortunate to lose doesn't change that.

 

[GIMH]

See point B.

 

[BoyBrumby]

His position is wrong.

The majority of this Spanish side have become international regulars since the last World Cup. In that time frame they've played 48 games and won 45 of them. Brazil aside, no-one has a greater claim to the favourites tag than the Spanish.

That Spain have largely underachieved throughout the 90s and 00s is nothing to do with the current generation of players. When they've played together, they've been excellent - and one setback where they were unfortunate to lose doesn't change that.

Weren't unlucky, IMHO. Swiss win fully merited.

Not that I disagree with you; it's classic reductive Scaly thinking. Ignore all evidence that contradicts your viewpoint and cling on to anything that supports it like a limpit.

 

[Magrat Garlick]

.
That Spain have largely underachieved throughout the 90s and 00s is nothing to do with the current generation of players. When they've played together, they've been excellent - and one setback where they were unfortunate to lose doesn't change that.

Nah, it does tbh. Not only does it wreck their way to the final - they now have to knock out Brazil if things go as they depressingly should - it also shows a way to beat them (as Inter did to Barcelona), that they're not well prepared for this championship, etc.

I still think that 'Spain won't win the World Cup' is a coward's prediction, because it had so many potential chances to be proven right (Spain only had to lose one of their seven matches), but it got even more likely after today.

 

[Scaly piscine]

It's not just their history but their style of play. Spain didn't win the Euros, they were gifted it by luck and default. They beat Italy... on penalties. Their group was a doddle. Their semi was a doddle. Germany at virtually any other time in history would have beaten them, but at that particular point in time they had a mediocre aggressive side which played right into Spain's hands.

Spain are a one dimensional side. They're very good at that one dimension, but by no means great. In terms of personnel their players are always going to be over-hyped, they play for those sorts of clubs. That's different to Brazil, who as a team may be hyped but not the individuals (with the odd exception) - they also actually justify the hype. Spain aren't going to default their way to the World Cup, you've got to be able to cope with different challenges.

Oh and it looks like Rafa the Clown did the rest of World Cup sides a favour by mucking about with Torres as well.

 

[Burgey]

LOL Spain..

 

[Furball]

It's not just their history but their style of play. Spain didn't win the Euros, they were gifted it by luck and default. They beat Italy... on penalties. Their group was a doddle. Their semi was a doddle. Germany at virtually any other time in history would have beaten them, but at that particular point in time they had a mediocre aggressive side which played right into Spain's hands.

Spain are a one dimensional side. They're very good at that one dimension, but by no means great. In terms of personnel their players are always going to be over-hyped, they play for those sorts of clubs. That's different to Brazil, who as a team may be hyped but not the individuals (with the odd exception) - they also actually justify the hype. Spain aren't going to default their way to the World Cup, you've got to be able to cope with different challenges.

Oh and it looks like Rafa the Clown did the rest of World Cup sides a favour by mucking about with Torres as well.

How much Spanish football do you watch?

There's a reason guys like Villa, Xavi and Iniesta are hyped.

Where Spain are weak, and with the system they play it's a cardinal weakness, is at fullback. Ramos is turd, and Capdevilla isn't particularly special either. Marchena in at centre half with Puyol moved to right back might be a worthwhile switch for Del Bosque to make.

 

[Pothas]

Think that is unlikely to be fair, pretty sure Aragones is not in the country.

 

[Furball]

Think that is unlikely to be fair, pretty sure Aragones is not in the country.

Meant Del Bosque.

 

[Scaly piscine]

How much Spanish football do you watch?

There's a reason guys like Villa, Xavi and Iniesta are hyped.

Where Spain are weak, and with the system they play it's a cardinal weakness, is at fullback. Ramos is turd, and Capdevilla isn't particularly special either. Marchena in at centre half with Puyol moved to right back might be a worthwhile switch for Del Bosque to make.

Well I watched them today and they got beat in a fairly predictable manner. The unpredictability of it was that it was Switzerland who managed it. As much as Torres was rusty it wasn't like Spain had a hatful of chances and they scored precisely zero off them.

From the hype you'd think they've got a better squad than Brazil. I very much doubt that's the case personally.

 

[LongHopCassidy]

Casillas never struck me as one who'd let that sort of chicanery get put past him.

Why'd he dive at the ball so early? Doesn't seem like a habit of the arguable best keeper in the world.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Don't think too many would make that claim for him just now, tbh. Peaked a while back. Reckon if Reina was playing in Spain he'd probably get the starting jersey.

Keeper going in feet first smacks of not wanting to get kicked, really. Insert the "cowardly latins" racial slur of your choice here.