Group D - Germany, Australia, Serbia, Ghana

[social]

Originally Posted by GeraintIsMyHero

Yesterday adamc asked about the handball rule and I think I replied that it had to be deliberate but that there is also a common-sense ruling to apply. Now I think Kewell didn't deliberately move his arm to the ball. However I don't think he made any attempt to not handle the ball. It's not a case of people not understanding, if handballs like that on the line were not given then there would be an awful lot of silliness.

That being said, have seen more blatant ones not given.

Also, I felt Australia responded a lot better to being a man down than last time, especially after the break.

Oz showed heart but I despair about our next campaign

[BoyBrumby]

Originally Posted by Goughy

Thats fair enough. If you think it looked deliberate then it should be a pen and a red. No question.

I personally thought it could be seen as accidental as the ball was blasted from 6 yards and it inadvertently hit the arm. That is a value judgement and Im fine with the decision either way.

Im not debating the call. If people think he made a move with the arm then it is a pen. My point, and I think others as well, is that just because the ball hit arm and prevented a goal does not automatically mean penalty (something I dont think you disagree with.)

Originally Posted by GeraintIsMyHero

Yesterday adamc asked about the handball rule and I think I replied that it had to be deliberate but that there is also a common-sense ruling to apply. Now I think Kewell didn't deliberately move his arm to the ball. However I don't think he made any attempt to not handle the ball. It's not a case of people not understanding, if handballs like that on the line were not given then there would be an awful lot of silliness.

That being said, have seen more blatant ones not given.

Also, I felt Australia responded a lot better to being a man down than last time, especially after the break.

Seen it several times and it still looks deliberate to me. If you make a move towards the ball with your arm outstretched I'd suggest it's always going to give the semblance of volition.

The view from the side is the best one, Kewell actually raises his arm slightly as the ball moves through the air. Instinct? Possibly, but it's a deliberate movement to my way of thinking.

[Pothas]

Originally Posted by GeraintIsMyHero

Yesterday adamc asked about the handball rule and I think I replied that it had to be deliberate but that there is also a common-sense ruling to apply. Now I think Kewell didn't deliberately move his arm to the ball. However I don't think he made any attempt to not handle the ball. It's not a case of people not understanding, if handballs like that on the line were not given then there would be an awful lot of silliness.

That being said, have seen more blatant ones not given.

Also, I felt Australia responded a lot better to being a man down than last time, especially after the break.

Yeah agree with this.

If the rules say that was not a penalty then the rule needs changing.

Can sympathise with Kewell over the red card but would have to see it again, not sure if their was any intent.

Australia responded well anyway, massive wasted oportunity for Ghana though.

[GIMH]

Fair enough - I don't necessarily think he deliberately handled the ball but I do believe he could have avoided it so I would have still given it

edit, to BB

[social]

Originally Posted by Pothas

Yeah agree with this.

If the rules say that was not a penalty then the rule needs changing.

Can sympathise with Kewell over the red card but would have to see it again, not sure if their was any intent.

Australia responded well anyway, massive wasted oportunity for Ghana though.

Ghana are not that good and Oz should've beaten them if they'd played half as well as a couple of months ago

Living in Dubai, I've seen virtually all the WC qualifiers from Africa, African Nations Cup, etc

Thye've got good young players but arent world class by any stretch of the imagination

Mind you, they're much better than Algeria

[Goughy]

Originally Posted by social

Mind you, they're much better than Algeria

Really? Algeria are higher ranked than Ghana and Algeria topped a group that included the strongest team in Africa to qualify.

I dont rate Algeria but North African football is often severely underrated in comparison to sub-saharan Africa

[Samuel_Vimes]

Originally Posted by BoyBrumby

Ref was right, IMHO. Badly wrong on the other pen shout tho.

I refer you to your own point of the cmr-den match:

Originally Posted by BoyBrumby

Didn't even appeal overly, did they?

[Burgey]

Originally Posted by GeraintIsMyHero

Fair enough - I don't necessarily think he deliberately handled the ball but I do believe he could have avoided it so I would have still given it

edit, to BB

Am intrigued by this train of thought.. Personally think it's a product of the slow motion replay generation.

Watch it at full speed ffs, it's well hammered at him, hardly like a dipsy little shot he parried round the bar ffs.

Explain to me how a bloke in his situation has the time to cosciously make a decision to handle the ball.

I mean, if you imbue in Kewell the ability to make a conscious decision in that time frame, the we should imbue in the ref the ability to see it hit his bicep, and even if his arm was beside him, would still have hit him on the arm. Ah well.

As I said to Sledger mate, put him in a white shirt 24 hours earlier and you'd be busting your balls over it.

Still, we had chances to win, and was a great effort a player down. ****, how great if Ghana did the impossible next game and we won?

Can't see it mind, we need the Krauts to do a number on Ghana and we the same on Serbia.

Am nervous, relying on Germans for anything other than automotive excellence.

[Uppercut]

Originally Posted by Burgey

As I said to Sledger mate, put him in a white shirt 24 hours earlier and you'd be busting your balls over it.

This says nothing regarding the correctness of the decision tbf .

[BoyBrumby]

Originally Posted by Burgey

Explain to me how a bloke in his situation has the time to cosciously make a decision to handle the ball.

Ha, goalkeepers do it all the time, tbf. Would be a completely redundant position if they didn't.

[Burgey]

Originally Posted by BoyBrumby

Ha, goalkeepers do it all the time, tbf. Would be a completely redundant position if they didn't.

Robert Green doesn't

[Burgey]

Originally Posted by Nnanden

Forgot to mention - no Craig Moore for Serbia. Thank goodness, what a liability.

Yeah, a genuine bonus tbh.

[Johnners]

Hahaha reading through the fox sports "have your say" article this morning is most amusing (and shameful). Ideas ranging from "The ref is supposed to be able to slow things down so he can see it as we did on replay" to "It's a conspiracy, why else where the refs so fast to red-card our two most important players!"

[cpr]

Can see peoples points.

For me though, Kewell has stood there, gone to block the ball, done it with his hand, denied a goal. Be bloody unfair to turn around and say 'sorry Ghana, but I dont think he really meant it'..... Same with the tangle of legs up the other end, no intention there at all, but it was still illegal impediment and (should've been) a penalty

Hypocritical for fans to suggest that an accidental impediment with the feet is a penalty at one end, but an accidental impediment with the arm at the other isn't.

Just a shame that the ref **** out of the first decision.

Originally Posted by BoyBrumby

Ha, goalkeepers do it all the time, tbf. Would be a completely redundant position if they didn't.

See Shay Givens greatest saves for a perfect example IMO.

[Uppercut]

You are just making rules up, though. Fact is, the ref only had two options.

Fair call if you think the rules should be changed. I'm on the fence regarding that.