Group D - Germany, Australia, Serbia, Ghana

[LongHopCassidy]

Originally Posted by pasag

See above post.

Not really applicable. If a general calls the Prime Minister or a media CEO an opportunistic populist **** would you go all glowy inside when he lost a battle or got captured?

[Uppercut]

Originally Posted by cpr

It's not deliberate handball, its deliberately stopping a goalscoring chance by unfair means.

Kewells on the line to stop the shot, He stands his ground, or tries to block the shot. Either way his intent is to stop that ball going in (unless he's physically moving out of the way of the shot). Whether intentional or not, he does not do so by a legal means, and Australia benefit by not conceeding due to his intention to block that was not done legally. Hence the pen and red.

To put it bluntly, you're wrong. It's perfectly legal to play the ball off the line with your hand in football- provided you don't mean to.

Red Card - Showing a red card to a player means he/she is expelled from the match. A straight red card (no previous ‘caution’) can be shown for extreme offences such as serious foul play, violent conduct, spitting, deliberate hand-ball to prevent a goal, a professional foul (denying a goalscoring opportunity) and insulting language and/or gestures.

Offences that lead to a direct free kick:

Awarded as a result of fouls with evidence intent to harm or reckless/excessive force (e.g. a sliding tackle which takes the player first, shirt-pulling and a deliberate hand-ball).

A non-deliberate handball is nothing. You can accidentally play the ball with your hand all you like, anywhere on the pitch. If he knows the ball is going to hit his hand, has ample time to react and does nothing to stop that from happening, it's a deliberate handball and a red card. If he spreads his arms with the intention of blocking the ball, and the ball is subsequently fired at them before he has time to change his mind, that's also a deliberate handball and a red card. If the ball just hits him on the arm before he has time to react, then it's a perfectly legitimate block. The ref has no grey area to work with here- penalty and red, or nothing at all. Them's the rules.

[LongHopCassidy]

This **** of a ref well within the Graham Poll and Urs Meier pantheon, or mine.

Another Italian robs us.

[grecian]

Good, the Aussies are falling out amongst themselves, all augurs well for the Ashes, IMHO.

Even more acrimony will ensue when Straussy and the lads are stuffing 'em.

[LongHopCassidy]

Originally Posted by grecian

Good, the Aussies are falling out amongst themselves, all augurs well for the Ashes, IMHO.

Even more acrimony will ensue when Straussy and the lads are stuffing 'em.

Concocting Koertzen jokes aws.

[pasag]

Originally Posted by LongHopCassidy

Not really applicable. If a general calls the Prime Minister or a media CEO an opportunistic populist **** would you go all glowy inside when he lost a battle or got captured?

Haha, let me know if you think this makes any sense tomorrow when the mist has cleared away

[Goughy]

Originally Posted by Uppercut

It's perfectly legal to play the ball off the line with your hand in football- provided you don't mean to.

Yeah, you are spot on. If people say that Kewell did what he did intentionally and made a movement then that is fine. Penalty kick. If people say he had the ball blasted at him from 6 yards away and couldnt get out of the way and it hit his arm and therefore not a pen then that is also fine.

Just depends on how you view his intentions.

[Nnanden]

Originally Posted by Uppercut

To put it bluntly, you're wrong. It's perfectly legal to play the ball off the line with your hand in football- provided you don't mean to.

A non-deliberate handball is nothing. You can accidentally play the ball with your hand all you like, anywhere on the pitch. If he knows the ball is going to hit his hand, has ample time to react and does nothing to stop that from happening, it's a deliberate handball and a red card. If he spreads his arms with the intention of blocking the ball, and the ball is subsequently fired at them before he has time to change his mind, that's also a deliberate handball and a red card. If the ball just hits him on the arm before he has time to react, then it's a perfectly legitimate block. The ref has no grey area to work with here- penalty and red, or nothing at all. Them's the rules.

This, a thousand times. Not sure how people still don't understand.

Pretty gutted right now. Though not without hope.

[stephen]

Originally Posted by grecian

Good, the Aussies are falling out amongst themselves, all augurs well for the Ashes, IMHO.

Even more acrimony will ensue when Straussy and the lads are stuffing 'em.

Nah there's no Italians around to screw us.

In all seriousness, the last two games have been a very big advertisement for any other code than soccer in this country.

1) Cahill's send off was ridiculous, especially in light of a couple of the tackles made by Ghana tonight.

2) Refs have far too much power to influence a soccer tournament. Having one player down is huge for a side, regardless of the technicalities of whether or not it should have been a penalty or not. Having your two best players unable to play together in the entire tournament because of red cards is just ridiculous.

3) All of that buildup and action for such a disappointing and ultimately unsatisfying result is painful.

4) There is very little consistency with the rules. Why is a dangerous tackle, studs up from behind deemed worthy of giving a player a warning while a non-intentional hand ball worthy of effectively eliminating a player from one and a half games? The card system offers only two degrees of penalty and they seem drastically out of balance.

5) The players themselves all seem like a bunch of whiney little brats who are softer than butter that's been left out in a Queensland summer.

I think three to four games every four years is just about as much of this sport as I can take.

[BoyBrumby]

Originally Posted by Goughy

Yeah, you are spot on. If people say that Kewell did what he did intentionally and made a movement then that is fine. Penalty kick. If people say he had the ball blasted at him from 6 yards away and couldnt get out of the way and it hit his arm and therefore not a pen then that is also fine.

Just depends on how you view his intentions.

That's true, but given a value judgement is inbuilt into every handball decision because of the wording of the law, when an offence looks as deliberate as Kewell's did & it denies a goalscoring opportunity the ref is going to send him off practically every time.

Ref was right, IMHO. Badly wrong on the other pen shout tho.

[Goughy]

Originally Posted by BoyBrumby

That's true, but given a value judgement is inbuilt into every handball decision because of the wording of the law, when an offence looks as deliberate as Kewell's did & it denies a goalscoring opportunity the ref is going to send him off practically every time.

Ref was right, IMHO. Badly wrong on the other pen shout tho.

Thats fair enough. If you think it looked deliberate then it should be a pen and a red. No question.

I personally thought it could be seen as accidental as the ball was blasted from 6 yards and it inadvertently hit the arm. That is a value judgement and Im fine with the decision either way.

Im not debating the call. If people think he made a move with the arm then it is a pen. My point, and I think others as well, is that just because the ball hit arm and prevented a goal does not automatically mean penalty (something I dont think you disagree with.)

[Scaly piscine]

Originally Posted by LongHopCassidy

Only if Ghana beat Germany, which isn't bloody likely.

If we beat Serbia 1-0 and Germany draws with Ghana (best possible case IMO), it's:

Germany 4 GD +3
Ghana 4 GD 0
Serbia 4 GD -1
Australia 4 GD -4

Looks like we have to beat Serbia 2-0 or more and Germany draws with Ghana.

If Ghana beats Germany and we beat Serbia, obviously we're through.

Too many variables for mine.

Except Ghana would have 5 and Serbia 3. Australia's GD would be -3, Ghana's +1. A draw is the WORST possible result for Australia because they have to overcome Germany's +3 goal difference, or level it and have more goals scored. Ghana winning is the best result because that takes goal difference out of the equation. Germany winning hurts Ghana's goal difference who would be level with Australia.

[Nnanden]

Forgot to mention - no Craig Moore for Serbia. Thank goodness, what a liability.

[social]

Originally Posted by stephen

Nah there's no Italians around to screw us.

In all seriousness, the last two games have been a very big advertisement for any other code than soccer in this country.

1) Cahill's send off was ridiculous, especially in light of a couple of the tackles made by Ghana tonight.

2) Refs have far too much power to influence a soccer tournament. Having one player down is huge for a side, regardless of the technicalities of whether or not it should have been a penalty or not. Having your two best players unable to play together in the entire tournament because of red cards is just ridiculous.

3) All of that buildup and action for such a disappointing and ultimately unsatisfying result is painful.

4) There is very little consistency with the rules. Why is a dangerous tackle, studs up from behind deemed worthy of giving a player a warning while a non-intentional hand ball worthy of effectively eliminating a player from one and a half games? The card system offers only two degrees of penalty and they seem drastically out of balance.

5) The players themselves all seem like a bunch of whiney little brats who are softer than butter that's been left out in a Queensland summer.

I think three to four games every four years is just about as much of this sport as I can take.

Precisely why the game hasnt taken off in Oz all bar the juniors

Do I want to see little Tom play it at 4 - 10?

Yeah, because I know he wont get hurt and it's good for his co-ordination

Any further?

Nah

Game for soft-cock, whinging nancy boys

Like watching it when it's played well but it's a corrupt girlie game IMHO

[GIMH]

Originally Posted by Goughy

Yeah, you are spot on. If people say that Kewell did what he did intentionally and made a movement then that is fine. Penalty kick. If people say he had the ball blasted at him from 6 yards away and couldnt get out of the way and it hit his arm and therefore not a pen then that is also fine.

Just depends on how you view his intentions.

Originally Posted by Nnanden

This, a thousand times. Not sure how people still don't understand.

Pretty gutted right now. Though not without hope.

Yesterday adamc asked about the handball rule and I think I replied that it had to be deliberate but that there is also a common-sense ruling to apply. Now I think Kewell didn't deliberately move his arm to the ball. However I don't think he made any attempt to not handle the ball. It's not a case of people not understanding, if handballs like that on the line were not given then there would be an awful lot of silliness.

That being said, have seen more blatant ones not given.

Also, I felt Australia responded a lot better to being a man down than last time, especially after the break.