India needs to introspect

[Sanz]

Originally Posted by aussie

Tendulkar should have been picked. His assured presence at the top could have countered ENG bouncer tactic & everyone could have batted around him.

They should have called Farookh too, Didn't even need to buy his ticket.

[pasag]

Just found out India are out (been that sort of night/day). I don't think a big deal should be made of it, they were a bit sluggish, a bit out of form and lost their best player. Not to mention it's the nature of the shortened format that this can happen. I think major changes will only hurt a growing team more, although I can't disagree with ret's continuous improvement stance as long as it's nothing drastic.

[honestbharani]

Originally Posted by Arjun

At times, I don't think we should read too much into a tournament that's only two weeks long, and where one bad match results in an elimination. T20 seems a blink-and-miss style of cricket, with no room for a let-up at all.Raina is no more a #3 in T20, when the same plan works against him twice and claims him cheaply twice.

Dhoni is not exactly better against the same type of bowling.


The point is, confidence and form tend to overcome lots of deficiencies. There is a good chance that he would have been found out at 3 anyways but he was shuffled down, his form went down, his rhythm went out and then suddenly he was back at 3 for the crucial games and looked lost.


Even if Raina had failed at 3, had he been batting at 3 all along, at least it could be put down to inability. Now, it is inability plus incompetent captaincy...

[Arjun]

Originally Posted by honestbharani

Dhoni is not exactly better against the same type of bowling.


The point is, confidence and form tend to overcome lots of deficiencies. There is a good chance that he would have been found out at 3 anyways but he was shuffled down, his form went down, his rhythm went out and then suddenly he was back at 3 for the crucial games and looked lost.


Even if Raina had failed at 3, had he been batting at 3 all along, at least it could be put down to inability. Now, it is inability plus incompetent captaincy...

That is no excuse. Raina is no fresh youngster in this team. In fact, he's an established batsman and should make that adjustment. He looked completely out of sorts and then played an out-of-turn shot to get out. Dhoni isn't a technical genius, but he's a lot smarter, although he seemed unusually subdued when he came out to bat- though a rush of wickets can do such a thing.

Frankly, some of the picks in the squad didn't deserve to be there. Ravi Jadeja is a complete misfit in this form of the game, with bat and ball. Pragyan Ojha doesn't add much value apart from his bowling; both Amit Mishra and Yusuf Pathan are better, well-rounded options. Dinesh Karthik scores in bits and pieces, and only one fifty in the IPL, which doesn't inspire any confidence. Rahane and Badrinath were better, while T20 centurion Manish Pandey should have played.

[Arjun]

Originally Posted by pasag

Just found out India are out (been that sort of night/day). I don't think a big deal should be made of it, they were a bit sluggish, a bit out of form and lost their best player. Not to mention it's the nature of the shortened format that this can happen. I think major changes will only hurt a growing team more, although I can't disagree with ret's continuous improvement stance as long as it's nothing drastic.

Unfortunately, there were drastic changes since the last event. Some changes (getting in Raina and Ishant ahead of Robin and Joginder/Sreesanth) were forced, but some others were needless. They had first benched one T20 hero from last season (fine, RP Singh isn't that great, but he didn't deserve to be benched) and then dropped another top T20 player (Irfan has his problems, but he's still one of the best for T20) for a key match. There was also the baffling selection of two left-arm spinners who were nothing special, and added little to their places in the team. While a few problems couldn't be helped, the least they could do is stick to their best tea, but we hardly saw that. The lack of specialist batting options was another factor, as they were reduced to just four at one point of time, but this T20 has thrown up a new weakness of this team- the lack of consistent big shots.

[ret]

one good point for me abt India's exit is that I will be able to follow the rest of the games from a neutral perspective and enjoy good cricket

[ret]

Nassir Hussain to Harsha Bhogle in the commentary box after India's exit "No matter what you say in the end it is the technical inadequacy to play the rising ball that cost India"

He summed it up nicely. I wonder if he writes columns.

[Sanz]

So what is Gary Doing in the team apart from playing Poker with rest of his crew ?

[honestbharani]

Originally Posted by Sanz

So what is Gary Doing in the team apart from playing Poker with rest of his crew ?

I dunno.. No one was giving him too much credit when we did well either.


At the moment, he is being a backroom boy, letting all of the spotlight on Dhoni and the rest of the team. When they did well, they were glorified. When they have played poorly (as they have done now), they are being pilloried. I don't understand what the problem with Kirsten is here.... He is being consistent in being out of the spotlight...


And if Dhoni can take the praises, he gotta take the criticisms too. You are being completely unfair here... Plus, if Dhoni's excuse is that as a captain, he can have bad games and tourneys, the same can happen to the coach too.


It is not juz Gary btw, Venky and Robin are there too plus the medical staff.

[pasag]

Originally Posted by Sanz

So what is Gary Doing in the team apart from playing Poker with rest of his crew ?

Most of us don't know, which is fine. Really, the only praise or criticism of Kirsten at this stage should come out of a proper coaching review done by the BCCI.

[Smith]

Originally Posted by Sanz

So what is Gary Doing in the team apart from playing Poker with rest of his crew ?

Err.. coaching for a change?

[Sanz]

Originally Posted by honestbharani

I dunno.. No one was giving him too much credit when we did well either.


At the moment, he is being a backroom boy, letting all of the spotlight on Dhoni and the rest of the team. When they did well, they were glorified. When they have played poorly (as they have done now), they are being pilloried. I don't understand what the problem with Kirsten is here.... He is being consistent in being out of the spotlight...


And if Dhoni can take the praises, he gotta take the criticisms too. You are being completely unfair here... Plus, if Dhoni's excuse is that as a captain, he can have bad games and tourneys, the same can happen to the coach too.


It is not juz Gary btw, Venky and Robin are there too plus the medical staff.

Originally Posted by pasag

Most of us don't know, which is fine. Really, the only praise or criticism of Kirsten at this stage should come out of a proper coaching review done by the BCCI.

Hahaha, Don't worry I was not blaming him or Dhoni for the loss. I think India played competitive cricket in this series and lost two close games because some poor decisions from its captain.

My question was directed at the new perception (or fact) that "it is the technical inadequacy to play the rising ball that cost India", well in that case it has been a year and half since Gary took over, why have they not recognized this shortcoming yet ?

[ret]

wasn't it WI who exposed that on June 12th!

[ret]

Indian misery ends with 3 loses in a row .... Would like some of the guys to rested for the WI tour, which would also give them an opportunity to analyze their games

my recommendation for the squad

openers: Rohit, Panday, Vijay
other batsmen: Yuvi, Badri, YP, Karthik
pacers: RP, Praveen, IP, Nehra, Munaf
spinners: ojha and mishra
15th place: jadeja / another wk like Saha / Virat Kohli / ?

[Arjun]

Now, after a public apology by Dhoni, the team management, particularly Gary Kirsten, started the excuse-o-matic before this match, blaming IPL fatigue on their below-par performance here. Then how was South Africa doing so much better? Or Sri Lanka? Both teams had all their top players in the IPL and they're doing well here. The result of Delhi and Punjab crashing out and Deccan winning the IPL was a bigger factor than any fatigue.

The Indians (batsmen in particular) were less than dire throughout the IPL, and that has showed here too. It is difficult to comment on the bowling, as they did well, though let down by fielding and field placings, but Zaheer and Ishant not being in form in England was a factor. The batting, however, looks completely misfit in T20, lacking technique, power, innovation and intelligence. Strategies were also weird, but when your best T20 players are on the bench, you're out of it.

And there's Yusuf Pathan. Tipped as one of the best T20 players around, Dhoni has relegated him far back into the sidelines, when he can contribute so much to this team.