Group F - Ireland, Pakistan, New Zealand, Sri Lanka

[gvenkat]

Sometimes you should just take your licks, shut up and go home as Faz said in his article sour grapes from vettori

[AaronK]

Originally Posted by Fusion

It's not just that Vettori went to the match referee (which however you frame it was asking “are Pakistan cheating”?), it’s also what he said after the game. His comments about the disbelieve on how much swing Gul was getting were clearly implying something. When I first read those comments, my immediate thoughts were “wow, is he implying that Gul tempered with the ball”? And at that point I didn’t even know that he had approached the umps about the matter. So considering that he had approach the umps and was told that they didn’t believe any cheating was taking place, for him to make those comments afterwards only added fuel to the fire. All in all, it came off as sour grapes, as Geoff Lawson has commented. Here’s an excerpt of something Andrew Hughes wrote that summarizes my feelings on the matter:

As Daniel Vettori has recently discovered, getting your ass whipped can be a painful experience. But that doesn't mean you should air your unsightly soreness in public. In the bitterness of defeat as in the rush of victory, a skipper can, if he wants, react like any person in the street. Or he can choose to conduct himself like a captain of his country. Win gracefully; lose gracefully. It is a simple principle, and in these days of fist-pumping, verbal abuse and winner grabs all, it is the only boundary rope separating cricket from being just a rather expensive squabble over a ball.

I was actually watching that press conference and I was shocked also.. to me he sounded like he was accusing pakistan and Gul of cheating..that is why i start discussing it here..

Look i believe one of the biggest mistake that he made was when he discuss the issue with media.. if he complained to match refree and asked them to investegate... he should have shut up and wait for their answer before discussing it with media..he had to know this.. the match was played in The Oval and after the 2006 incident.. the issue is still sensitive but he didn't know that it seems..

[slugger]

Originally Posted by shivfan

I agree....

It's a pity, because at the start of the competition, New Zealand was the neutral team I was cheering for. After Vettori's behaviour, I was cheering for NZ to be knocked out.

this behaviour you speak of was after NZ were already knocked out?????

[Smudge]

No, it wasn't. We played Sri Lanka AFTER Pakistan.

[pasag]

Originally Posted by Jono

I like Vettori, and don't necessarily disagree with his actions of what I'm about to list, but he has an interesting record as captain:

- questioned Tait's action
- locked himself and the rest of his team in the locker room against England, not shaking hands with Collingwood
- questioned whether Gul/Pakistan tampered with the ball in public

Interesting to say the least.

Seems like a pretty innocuous rap sheet, tbh.

[99*]

Originally Posted by AaronK

I was actually watching that press conference and I was shocked also.. to me he sounded like he was accusing pakistan and Gul of cheating..that is why i start discussing it here..

Look i believe one of the biggest mistake that he made was when he discuss the issue with media.. if he complained to match refree and asked them to investegate... he should have shut up and wait for their answer before discussing it with media..he had to know this.. the match was played in The Oval and after the 2006 incident.. the issue is still sensitive but he didn't know that it seems..

I watched the press conference (or what was shown of it here) and I heard nothing that sounded like an accusation. Honestly I thought he sounded in awe of the fact that someone could get a ball to reverse that quick and he praised him about it.

Really, it's kind of childish to care anymore, Vettori asked a question of the umpires and then the match ref. He's within his rights to. And given Pakistan's history, I dont blame him.

[slugger]

Originally Posted by Voltman

No, it wasn't. We played Sri Lanka AFTER Pakistan.

ok mr semantics.......... It was this behavior that was after the pakistan game ..@the press gallery..why are you sticking up from him anyway, either way his comment makes no sense whether nz played another game after the behavoiur or not.

[Smudge]

Originally Posted by slugger

ok mr semantics.......... It was this behavior that was after the pakistan game ..@the press gallery..why are you sticking up from him anyway, either way his comment makes no sense whether nz played another game after the behavoiur or not.

It's not semantics - if you are going to have a crack at him expect a crack back. And it does make sense - because the Sri Lanka v NZ game was a knockout game. So obviously, he did have the option of pinning his colours to whichever mast he liked as NZ's tournament hopes were still well and truly alive.

Come back when you've learned the art of capital letters.

[slugger]

No wait I apologise, I got my wires crossed, it makes sense what your saying re: knocked out after sri lanka.. however he was cheering that we got knocked out.. so I would hardly call that supporting the nz team....... nonetheless....

[shivfan]

Originally Posted by Xuhaib

Expecting Mendis to be accused for ball tempering.

Great post....

This is where Vettori is being disingenuous. If the ball was tampered with, all the Pakistani bowlers would be getting reverse swing. As it was, Gul was the only one who was getting marginal reverse swing. As Aaqib says, reverse swing is an art.

Gul's reverse swing is an art, says Aaqib | Cricket News | ICC World Twenty20 2009 | Cricinfo.com

[shivfan]

Originally Posted by 99*

I watched the press conference (or what was shown of it here) and I heard nothing that sounded like an accusation. Honestly I thought he sounded in awe of the fact that someone could get a ball to reverse that quick and he praised him about it.

Really, it's kind of childish to care anymore, Vettori asked a question of the umpires and then the match ref. He's within his rights to. And given Pakistan's history, I dont blame him.

That is exactly the attitude I don't like....

1) NZ batsmen succumb to Gul's reverse swing.

2) Gul is a Pakistani bowler

3) Therefore, the strong likelihood is that Gul is cheating.

No attempt was made to ask the Kiwi management to look for TV evidence. Rather, come out with it and cast unsubstantiated doubts on the way Pakistan plays cricket....

[Athlai]

Reverse swing in a 20 over game? ITSTL

[Zinzan]

First chance I've had to comment since the NZ v SL game, and I've nothing to complain about. SL were always going to be too good IMO unless we somehow held them to a score of 130, and even then it would have been a challenge against the 3M's.

Since I had bugger-all expectations, I really wasn't that disappointed tbh, nothing like the 2007 WC (50 overs) semi against SL when I was absolutely gutted, truly believing we had a side good enough to win.

[nightprowler10]

Originally Posted by Athlai

Reverse swing in a 20 over game? ITSTL

Simon Jones and company were getting reverse swing in 05 on the same grounds after 15 overs. Red ball vs white ball and all, but not unheard of.

[99*]

Originally Posted by shivfan

That is exactly the attitude I don't like....

1) NZ batsmen succumb to Gul's reverse swing.

2) Gul is a Pakistani bowler

3) Therefore, the strong likelihood is that Gul is cheating.

No attempt was made to ask the Kiwi management to look for TV evidence. Rather, come out with it and cast unsubstantiated doubts on the way Pakistan plays cricket....

You seem to miss the important point.

1) NZ batsmen succumb to Gul's reverse swing, something that has not been seen in this form of the game by the NZ batsmen, ever (I would believe).

What are the options Vettori can think of. (Some I just whipped up)

1- Gul has figured out how to reverse the ball long before it should.
2- Gul has done something to the ball to cause it to swing in that manner.
3- It's a one off thing.

If it's 1 or 3 (most likely) they can find out easy enough how/why it's happened.
But given Pakistan's history with ball-tampering I would think there's a chance that it's #2. What can I do to find out?

1- Ask the umpires to see if anything is wrong with the ball.
2- Bitch about it after the game. And demand every replay of the ball in a Pakistani hand.
3- Do nothing.

Point of the game is to win (well I bloody hope so) so 3 is out, because I need to know how he's doing this (It's working wonders). I can't do 2 without being hung out to dry if my claims are shown to be false. So the best option is to ask the umpires. IMO he did what he should have to get answers.

You may not like the fact that he might have only asked because he was facing a Pakistani, that's life, Pakistan has/had a reputation of tampering, it has to be an option when something new comes out of the blue.