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The England Thread

Scaly piscine

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Ignoring the archetypal football fan Crouch hater brigade on here (sorry but most football fans are stupid - they'd sooner have a slow 2 foot 3 weakling with good skills playing than someone that'll give any defense a problem but is gormless with it - then they'll boo him whenever he gets the ball), I don't really see the point in England playing 4-5-1 or 4-4-1-1 systems - England players aren't smart enough to adapt to new systems in a short space of time and it'll just result in some shambolic mess for the first game which will then mean a hasty, messy retreat back to 4-4-2.

Code:
                Robinson

Neville    Terry       Rio     A Cole

J Cole    Lampard    Gerrard   Downing

           Owen       Crouch
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
And of course with the likes of the Chelsea players in the side, they've never had to adapt at all have they?
 

Matteh

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Scaly piscine said:
Code:
                Robinson

Neville    Terry       Rio     A Cole

J Cole    Lampard    Gerrard   Downing

           Owen       Crouch
Yeah well...James for Robinson, P Neville for A Cole, Des Walker still has a kick about every now and again so him in for Terry.....

Seriously though - Beckham should play ahead of Downing due to the fact that Downing's been injured quite a lot of the season. And i'd rather see Sheringham partner Owen than Crouch, who has no ball control, doesn't ever seem to get into the game whenever i've seen him, his heading isn't even that good - he's just really really tall.
 

Scaly piscine

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Downing has done very well in his last few games for Boro, creating lots of chances through crosses. I don't see him having been injured over two months before England's first WC game being a problem. Beckham has repeatedly been the weakest link by a distance whenever he's played for England for the last few years, he always looks like getting himself sent off because he goes nuts whenever he gives the ball away and every team in the world has him sussed - stand in front on his right hand side and watch him go round in circles like a duck in water with one leg before passing the ball backwards 20 yards. Downing would still be the weakest link in midfield to an extent, but he'll improve the balance, not waste most of the free kicks, corners and not get himself sent off.

As for the forwards you primarily need someone who can win the ball in the air and just basically be an annoyance and distraction when they're partnered with Owen. I don't think Sheringham will be able to do this as well as Crouch, if Owen wasn't playing then it would all be different.

Having said this I hope Owen learns to anticipate Crouch's flick-ons a lot better, because Crouch almost always gets his head to an aerial ball and flicks it on - last few England games I've seen Owen stands still like a pillock expecting a pin point cushion header.
 

GIMH

Norwood's on Fire
Scaly piscine said:
Ignoring the archetypal football fan Crouch hater brigade on here (sorry but most football fans are stupid - they'd sooner have a slow 2 foot 3 weakling with good skills playing than someone that'll give any defense a problem but is gormless with it - then they'll boo him whenever he gets the ball), I don't really see the point in England playing 4-5-1 or 4-4-1-1 systems - England players aren't smart enough to adapt to new systems in a short space of time and it'll just result in some shambolic mess for the first game which will then mean a hasty, messy retreat back to 4-4-2.

Code:
                Robinson

Neville    Terry       Rio     A Cole

J Cole    Lampard    Gerrard   Downing

           Owen       Crouch
I suppose Rooney never drops deep, and plays alongside Owen, rather than dropping off him?

Gerrard/Cole in the hole would not mean a particularly different system than having Rooney up front with Owen

But as I attend 50 football matches a year, I guess I'm stupid, seems as football fans are stupid
 

GIMH

Norwood's on Fire
Oh and the fact that Carragher has been the best defender in England this season, and probably the second best last season, should give him a place in the team ahead of Ferdinand. It probably won't, but there you go, that's my opinion
 

Scaly piscine

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
GeraintIsMyHero said:
I suppose Rooney never drops deep, and plays alongside Owen, rather than dropping off him?

Gerrard/Cole in the hole would not mean a particularly different system than having Rooney up front with Owen

But as I attend 50 football matches a year, I guess I'm stupid, seems as football fans are stupid
I said 'most football fans are stupid'

Gerrard isn't going to be anywhere near as effective as Rooney up front. England will have little or no attacking threat with your team unless they get in front and can counter attack so players have some space to play the ball about (see CDMs for example over the past few seasons, it all looks good against a crap side in disarray, but put them up against a well organised two banks of four that near every side in the World Cup can provide and they struggle badly).

Since the onus will be on England to attack in the first two group games at least I think they need to have more of a threat than one proven goalscorer who won't see the ball all game anyway, two players on the wing who tend to cut infield a lot and will hardly ever get around and behind the defense, so you're basically relying on an exceptional pin point pass, very good long range strike or something else that's exceptional (including exceptionally bad like a keeper error etc.). The only team I'd say your sort of side is viable against is Brazil - one where the onus is shifted and 0-0 is relatively good.
 

GIMH

Norwood's on Fire
Okay, my error with the "stupid" comment

Still, I don't think a team with Gerrard, Lampard, Joe Cole, and Michael Owen is playing for a nil-nil.

Gerrard and Crouch play for the same team, and Gerrard has about twice as many goals as Crouch does this season

Gerrard's goals come from the same area as Rooney's

In an ideal world it's not where you want him playing, but he's not wasted, and you have to make the best of what you have, and I believe Gerrard playing off Michael Owen's shoulder, like Rooney does, would be a more viable option than playing Crouch, who would perhaps still be best utilised a late substitute to unnerve defences

My argument is basically that the way Rooney plays means we often play 4-4-1-1 anyway, Gerrard brings different talents to the table to Rooney without doubt, but he's a better option than Crouch, I believe.

Since the onus will be on England to attack in the first two group games at least I think they need to have more of a threat than one proven goalscorer who won't see the ball all game anyway
Some might argue that Gerrard and Lampard, with 40+ goals between them this season, are proven goalscorers, and you can bet they will certainly see a lot of the ball.

I hear what you are saying - but I disagree
 

DanielFullard

U19 Vice-Captain
Its frightening how much we lack a back up to Rooney and Owen. Is there one player we could call on to lead the line who you would have confidence in? Theres no-one for me. In fact its scary. Crouch must be in the squad but he is still got a lot to prove and is as often bad as he is good. Defoe has been going backwards. Bent is not international class either.

If Rooney is out who will our four strikers be....

Owen, Crouch, Bent, Defoe??????

We can't win the world cup with that front line.

The suggestion of having a midfield player doing Rooneys job is a good idea. Scholesy would have been the ideal choice but obvsiouly that can't be.
 

Scaly piscine

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
With Owen as the only forward and no way of winning aerial balls up front then Lampard and Gerrard will struggle to find space especially with Beckham and J Cole not giving England much width and so not spreading the opponents' defense out across the pitch.

Teams will just flood the midfield and it'll be very difficult for England to pass their way through like they'd have to with that team, that sort of play isn't to England's strength either.
 

superkingdave

Hall of Fame Member
I know its not really the time, but about the only thing i found amusing about the Rooney injury was that I saw his uncle on tv a couple of weeks ago boasting about how he stood to pick up about 50K when Rooney played in the 06 WC as a result of a bet he made years back.
 

BoyBrumby

Englishman
superkingdave said:
I know its not really the time, but about the only thing i found amusing about the Rooney injury was that I saw his uncle on tv a couple of weeks ago boasting about how he stood to pick up about 50K when Rooney played in the 06 WC as a result of a bet he made years back.
:laugh:

Typical govt bean-counter! ;)

Actually, doesn't Chris Kirkland's dad stand to pocket £10k if he's ever not injured for long enough to make his debut for England too? What's the betting (ha!) Mr William Hill never has to stump that one up?! :p
 

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